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ACVD: (unnamed MRJ)


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#21 Leos Klein

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 11:55 AM

You know a weapon is broken when it's so common that most 8 player matches bring you to 5fps because of all of the missiles.

 

I always just ran flares, because fuck having to deal with that shit. It was just a prerequisite to have fun.



#22 rogan

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 01:49 PM

I generally used tanky, underpowered/overloaded mids, so yeah wheeling was practically a death sentence. 

 

I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory than get chipped to death from 1500m without landing a hit.

At 1500m you shouldn't get touched by wheelings, at all. These builds stayed in your blind spots and chained wheeling03s endlessly until they ran out of ammo or you stopped living. Flares where a stop gap because they ran out long before missiles did and if you tried to run you died.

 

Fortunately, they had low armor and were not difficult to overpower if you where quick enough.


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#23 Nescient

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 02:55 PM

I was referring to PHACT (blaze of glory refers to wheeling spammers) in the second sentence. 

 

Dual rifles+flares on a high pa/kinetic mid usually pulled through if someone was completely dedicated to missiles. 


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#24 Berlioz

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 01:59 PM

 
Haha, no. Last I checked, I do better than Enders with just my UNACs, and I've been beating ACI consistently for a while, so I see no reason to join a team. Really, there just isn't a team on the PS3 INT that is good or interesting enough for me to join, and there probably never will be at this rate. The players would all have to get much better before the UNACs won't be enough to win consistently.


No you don't do better. You say you UNACs are better than us, you should show us.


What, so you guys can grab a bunch of pilers and kickers to cheese the match to feel important? Fuck that.


Out of all the melee options you picked pilers and kickers to be cheesy. If melee is the problem we will use something else.
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#25 rogan

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 01:18 PM

No you don't do better. You say you UNACs are better than us, you should show us.



Out of all the melee options you picked pilers and kickers to be cheesy. If melee is the problem we will use something else.

make sure disso plays so it can be recorded. Also make sure he uses his heavy tank, i really want a video of that tank.


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#26 HustlerOne

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 08:04 AM

make sure disso plays so it can be recorded. Also make sure he uses his heavy tank, i really want a video of that tank.

Regrettably, nikolai went under witness protection and now has a new identity. His whereabouts vanish from INT ever since oct 03.
.

#27 rogan

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 09:52 AM

Regrettably, nikolai went under witness protection and now has a new identity. His whereabouts vanish from INT ever since oct 03.
.

wat?

 

i just hope hes not that ACI member running around with a UNAC squad. Those UNACs are lousy.

 

I know nikolai says he plays but I've only seen him a few times

 

hes like a ghost...

 

WHERE ARE YOU!!! I WISH TO DO BATTLE!


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#28 Leos Klein

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 03:27 PM

I play ACVD like Hannibal Lecter. Show up for a week or two, murder some people, and then disappear. Haven't played since September, decided to fire the PS3 up today. When I'm not playing, I don't look at the forums.

 

As for HustlerOne, I never claim that UNACs are better than humans in each match, but over a period of matches in a season, they're more reliably successful than ~85% of players online. It also doesn't mean that a human team VS a UNAC team the UNACs will win, because the humans can and will adapt where the UNACs can't, but it might take them 3-4 matches before they figure it out. 

 

What it DOES mean is that by the time one human team can adapt to beat the UNAC team, they've moved on to another human team to fight. It's about maintaining a high percentage of first-time-encounter wins, and then preventing any one team from figuring the patterns out before switching. In that optimization, there's a small window where UNACs are so much more reliable than humans that you can win more matches more easily.



#29 Parry

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 03:55 PM

The day Leos actually has physical proof of his "stories" on VD is the day I actually believe him.


"Those who seek power are the absolute corruptible."


#30 rogan

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 04:57 PM

I play ACVD like Hannibal Lecter. Show up for a week or two, murder some people, and then disappear. Haven't played since September, decided to fire the PS3 up today. When I'm not playing, I don't look at the forums.

 

 

 

What it DOES mean is that by the time one human team can adapt to beat the UNAC team, they've moved on to another human team to fight. It's about maintaining a high percentage of first-time-encounter wins, and then preventing any one team from figuring the patterns out before switching. In that optimization, there's a small window where UNACs are so much more reliable than humans that you can win more matches more easily.

Part A: well thats boring, there needs to be a continuous stream of genocide

 

Part B: thats not a competent human team then. A competent human team will adapt to UNAC opponent immediately regardless of map or builds. There is always something to exploit. (these exploits are much easier to deal with as operator, but i think we can both agree that's boring compared to taking part in the battle yourself) UNACs win but either having the opposing team under estimate the UNAC's abilities, not uncommon as many people assume that custom UNACs are similar to the default ones and go "lol UNACs", at which point they deserve whatever happens to them. Or by having more firepower and better coordination than the opposing team. Personally, this is the condition I strive for.

 

I don't think that the first time win is the best possible outcome. I would rather split 50/50 with the same team over the course of several games and maps by having the UNAC team execute a planned strategy effectively which allows them to defeat the humans. Winning the first time you see an opposing team, then losing the next three isn't satisfactory to me since you as the operator or combatant can have a major influence on the battle. The UNACs just run programs.

*This assumes that both parties are willing to fight to the death and the humans don't cheese the UNACs via target hacking, or sub targets, or clock out.


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#31 Leos Klein

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 05:36 PM

Part A: well thats boring, there needs to be a continuous stream of genocide

 

Part B: thats not a competent human team then. A competent human team will adapt to UNAC opponent immediately regardless of map or builds. There is always something to exploit. (these exploits are much easier to deal with as operator, but i think we can both agree that's boring compared to taking part in the battle yourself) UNACs win but either having the opposing team under estimate the UNAC's abilities, not uncommon as many people assume that custom UNACs are similar to the default ones and go "lol UNACs", at which point they deserve whatever happens to them. Or by having more firepower and better coordination than the opposing team. Personally, this is the condition I strive for.

 

 

 

I don't think that the first time win is the best possible outcome. I would rather split 50/50 with the same team over the course of several games and maps by having the UNAC team execute a planned strategy effectively which allows them to defeat the humans. Winning the first time you see an opposing team, then losing the next three isn't satisfactory to me since you as the operator or combatant can have a major influence on the battle. The UNACs just run programs.

*This assumes that both parties are willing to fight to the death and the humans don't cheese the UNACs via target hacking, or sub targets, or clock out.

 

Part B: Agreed. What I'm saying is that most teams online aren't competent, or nearly as good as they could be regardless of what their skill level may indicate. Taking advantage of that amount of time it takes for them to "play seriously" is very easy. And usually it goes where I win the first one with all ACs sitll over 50% HP, then have a few closer matches, and then its usually on the third or fourth match that I start to lose, as they have adjusted their builds to counter my defense thresholds on my UNACs, and then compensated for the strategy. Once they figure that out, matches 5+ are much more difficult to win without changing the UNAC loadout entirely. In this case, just like you said, I still have a huge influence on the battle but they manage to take out 1 or two UNACs quickly via cheese tactics (pile drivers or just playing off defenses and trading AP) which ultimately results in me solo VS 3 or 4 human ACs, a pretty one-sided battle. 

 

This requires that they actually take the time to change their weapons or defenses, which is where most teams aren't "competent". Obviously a skilled team will win every time, but... you just don't see teams that good anymore, at least I don't. I haven't played much in a while though so take what I say with a grain of salt. So far today I've had 4 matches against humans, the first 3 against Agreus and the last against ITA-AC. I won all three of the first ones, and got timed out one the last one (my UNAC had 20k AP, they had an RJ human with 4k AP, and the UNAC got caught on the stage too much to follow. It was a special sortie, so they just had to time out to win). I'm VERY, VERY rusty right now, (UNACs, of course, don't rust in their skill levels) so I feel that alone is a sign that the higher ranked teams are necessarily very skilled at least on the PS3 INT server. I was expecting to get stomped for the first 5-10 matches at least.



#32 rogan

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 06:19 AM

I saw Agreus (spelling? sorry if anyone on the team is reading this.) for two games, first one my poor pets got piled to death the second game I was ready. Played ITA-AC twice and the second round had to kill my own JP teammate. There was one other game in there vs default UNACs but that wasn't a game in going to bother counting because it was terribly one sided. (you find a lot of games like this on INT, I don't even factor them into the win/lose count I keep because it would skew the count) After those couple games I got bored and did some mercing for ITA.

 

You do see solid teams playing, but mostly during JP dead hours.

 

Winning 5+ games then having the opposing team change their line up to counter the UNACs means little to me. Most of the time the teams I face will change their loadouts or tactics immediately. My goal is to look at those builds or tactics and say: "no fucks given" and still split 50/50 (or better of course, but 50/50 would be fine) If I beat a team three-five times running I get really bored and stop playing because I don't want to fight the same people over and over. Or I run around with 4 silly builds and see what type of dumb things I can make UNACs do. Like a UNAC kick squad, all SCTs, 4 shields + mines, the list goes on.


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#33 Leos Klein

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 08:40 AM

I think we're at the point now where improving UNACs or tactics is really not worth it, because there's so few competent teams to play against for the amount of time it takes to find one. It's stopped being fun.

 

Oh, BTW, I did test out jammers last night to good success. Used it with the 1476-damage rifle (Jesup) and I think I've figured out the jammer formulas after some testing. I think there's a relationship between jammer distance and effect, and I believe (not tested or confirmed) that the jammer value is the % reduction when the jammer is directly on top of the target, and it gets lower and lower as the target gets closer to the range value, before stopping entirely. Jesup stunlocks easily on its own if they're about 30m from the jammer or less. They are shockingly effective on UNACs against tanks. Not sure if I'd use them in a team match though because of the compromise to the weapon loadout. You also need the UNAC to be able to maintain <100m ranges to make use of them, which can be a pain against long-range heavies or tanks.



#34 dikhed7

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 06:11 PM

Oh, BTW, I did test out jammers last night to good success. Used it with the 1476-damage rifle (Jesup) and I think I've figured out the jammer formulas after some testing. I think there's a relationship between jammer distance and effect, and I believe (not tested or confirmed) that the jammer value is the % reduction when the jammer is directly on top of the target, and it gets lower and lower as the target gets closer to the range value, before stopping entirely. Jesup stunlocks easily on its own if they're about 30m from the jammer or less.

I require more information on this topic. Please post the secret formula to unlock the power of the jams. Or just PM it to me and fuck the rest of these nerds.

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#35 Leos Klein

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 06:47 PM

I haven't done more testing but I'm guessing this, from using it in battles. I have NO certainty if this is correct or not, so assume it to still be guesswork:

 

The jammer value is the % reduction of stability, that reduction is itself reduced by the % away from the jammer range you are. So when jammer range = combat range, there's NO jammer effect, and when jammer range = 0, you get the full reduction. 

 

So at a jammer effect of 75, at a range of 30, with a jammer range of 60, the total jamming effect would be 75/(30/60), or 75/2 or 37.5. Take that jammer effect and turn it into a stability coefficient (100-37.5)/100 = .625. That means that at a range of 30, the opponent's stability would be 62.5% of its normal value

 

This makes the formula:

 

E = S * (100-(J/(X/R))/100) 

 

E is the final stability value

S is the opponent's normal stability

J is the jammer effect

X is the range from jammer

R is the jammer range.

 

So at a stability of 1500, you'd need a 50% reduction in stability for an 750 impact weapon to hit. With an effect of 75 and a range of 60, that means you'd need to be within 1/3rd of the total distance to get the full effect, or 20m. This makes sense with what I've seen, because I haven't been able to stunlock outside of 10-30m range of the jammer, despite having a jammer range of 60. This implies that the jammer effect decreases as distance does, rather than just abruptly stopping.



#36 dikhed7

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 07:20 PM

Fml, somebody make this simple enough for me to understand. How do I figure out much reduction of RR do I get off a single Pasadena jam and how does it work when there are multiple jams. I'm sure the answer is in what you said but I played a lot of game boy during math class so make it easy for me.

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#37 Dapper Chap

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 04:41 AM

@Leos Klein How do heads factor into your formula? Because in my (again, no formal testing) experience, a head's anti-jam stat has a large effect on how much performance an AC loses when jammed. Also FCS/generator anti-jam performance where those stats are applicable, though I've given up somewhat on mounting generator jammers on an AC (FCS jammers are still totally rad though).

 

Also, I'm speculating idly about whether there's some relationship between the impact value of a weapon, an AC's stability (reduced or otherwise), and how far that AC gets knocked back by stun attacks. I've found my autocannon/Phoenix/stabjammer tank will push back many ACs (not just light ones, but also heavy ones like Iron Rose) with its autocannon fire, and this is kinda annoying for maintaining stunlock. I remember it being said however on the jammer discussion thread that gatling guns did not have the same knockback problems.

 

I think I might go do some experiments with a stabjammer and a full-power ARATAE mdl.2 railcannon to see if I can send ACs flying!



#38 rogan

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 06:06 AM

@Leos Klein How do heads factor into your formula?

There is a significant effect, though I don't have a math number for it.

 

I have been know to swap out a head piece to sayele when confronted with jammers, particularly vs multiple opponents as that head makes you pretty much immune to them. (At least in a tank)


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#39 dikhed7

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 07:44 AM

Pretty sure that auto cannons have that push ability due to the amount of bullets fired. IE each bullet has an impact and when you hit someone with that many that fast it causes the AC to be pushed. Stability may factor into how much the AC is pushed but doesn't do anything for the actual stagger/stun formula.

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#40 Dapper Chap

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 08:26 AM

@rogan is 'sayele' the old name for KAGARIBI? Because that's the head with the best anti-jam stat, along with bags of stability. That combination plus its defences/AP are why I'd chose that head instead Betsy Ross and Hd-G-A88 for a heavy tank.

 

Knockback tests did not go well. It seems that it does scale with impact force, but never gets high enough to be useful ::(

 

On the plus side though I've found a really good shoulder weapon for generating stunlock in conjunction with a stabjammer: the high impact bomb dispenser. 1571 impact force will in stun any jammed AC unless they have a super-resistant head, and 80 reload is fast enough to generate a very solid lock (the AoE nature of this weapon helps with this as it makes it harder for enemies to highboost away). The drawback is the limited reserve of ammo, but stick a decent gun in your free hand and I reckon you could easily kill someone whilst they're trapped. I'll do some more experimentation with this weapon, and then I'll try to post some sort of build along these lines.






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