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Firing speed / Recoil stat


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#1 Leos Klein

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:29 AM

Can someone help me remember if there was a recoil stat associated with weapons that isn't in AC:VD? 

 

I've noticed that a cannon with a reload time of 102 fires slower than a sniper cannon with a reload time of 160, while in ready position on quad legs (everything else, like stability, RR, frame, and the other weapon load stays the same). I can only assume it's because a higher recoil associated with the cannon weapons, but there's nothing in the game indiciating what the weapon's recoil stat is. And I would think the sniper cannon would have higher recoil than the cannon anyway.

 

I could have sworn weapons in AC:V had a recoil stat, but for some reason I'm not seeing anything in the stat page. Is there a ghost stat for weapon recoil that isn't mentioned, or is it some quirk of quad legs?

 

Also, does the quad leg Recoil Buffering stat affect recoil resistance only, or also stability? What about firing stability? Quads seem to have a firing rate advantage with ready position weapons, so I assume that it's upping the stability stat, which has some impact on firing speed. I was under the impression that recoil resistance did not affect firing speed though, so is it safe to assume that "recoil buffering" affects Stability, and might affect recoil resistance al? 

 

I could do some UNAC tests to figure this out, but I imagine someone else has already so I thought I'd ask before testing. AC:VD has a lot of weird things (like the fact that some laser rifles fire at full power at 80% charge) that do not seem to follow the listed stats. This is the most egregious discrepancy I've seen though.

 

EDIT: Another hilarious discrepancy regarding what I think is recoil, HEAT Cannons have a firing accuracy of ~95, but when rapid fired in ready position by a high stability quad... they fire all over the place, sometimes at over 45 degree angles from the target even when locked on. 



#2 HustlerOne

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:08 AM

IIRC SC work differently on quads as they do with anything else, you can even try a howitzer(ke) with slightly lower reload than a sc on a quad and yet the SC will reload faster. That is not to say recoil buffering doesnt affect other ready position weapons on quads. But honestly leave those to tanks. Ever seen a hc quad? lol.

 

When you use a quad with a sc and fire off a shot, you'll see your reload time measured by a percentage, the higher your recoil buffering stat is, the more sooner  that percentage would accelerate to 100%. Their shots tend to deviate less compared to other leg class as well.

 

I'm not really sure if it affects other stats but don't overcompensate the complexity of this mechanic, really easy to figure out, if one wanted to. 

 

Also ACV's weapons didn't have a recoil stat, please do not go swearing on that.



#3 Leos Klein

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:44 AM

Yeah, this isn't about using heat cannons on quad legs, it's just about understanding how the stats work better. It's this weirdness with sniper cannons that seems to not make sense, as everything else falls in line. The rest of this is old news.



#4 HustlerOne

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:48 AM

Yeah, this isn't about using heat cannons on quad legs, it's just about understanding how the stats work better. It's this weirdness with sniper cannons that seems to not make sense, as everything else falls in line. The rest of this is old news.

Who cares how it works? just know that SC sees improvement on quads(speaking of old news). And no recoil resistance doesn't do shit for rof(more old news). 

 

I'm just pointing out your tendency to make bread and butter seem like rocket science. Realistically speaking, all you're gonna use on a quad is a SC. So just knowing how Recoil buffering affects reload by the stat, is enough.



#5 Leos Klein

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:24 AM

I care how it works! Dammit! This game is SERIOUS BUSINESS!

 

It's important because I want to calculate the actual rate of fire so I can test stun-locking, which makes ready position weapons more viable and maybe get some stunlock UNACs going on for support. The difference between "lolstunlock" and just HBing out of it is a pretty narrow window, knowing the math would help a lot. 

 

For me, half the fun of the game (maybe more than half) is speculating, testing, tuning, and understanding the stat system better.



#6 Maze

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 01:34 PM

I care how it works! Dammit! This game is SERIOUS BUSINESS!

Serious business doesn't mean rocket science you want stunlock vs light weights than just carry a couple shotguns and stagger fire while pegging them with hsms. your aren't going to stun anything beyond lbps at all like you could in ACV but if your looking for a dps boost Kocho's firing stability definitely renders a visible Improvement from the ke dual slot arms. I guess to a lesser extent the TE dual slot choices do too but it's probably only going to be a half second faster on the slowest reloading weapons. So it's not really a question of "will a certain rate of fire help you to stunlock someone?" ,the answer is not really, the question is, " can I stun this guy to start with" if the answer is yes then with what weapon?

 

Shotgun: sure a shotgun can stunlock light acs.

 

handgun: pffft no their reload speed is way too low, go back to the start.

 

missiles:if their stability is low enough sure missiles can stunlock people for a brief period of time.

 

laser rifles: some are viable to use when someone is already stunned to help keep the stun going or to just do a ton of damage.

 

cannons: for the most part you can stunlock with a lot of these, it might be the only instance when firing stability plays into stunning people (but only with a tank) a ready position ac with a ke cannon or heat cannon is junk.

 

 

If you want a weapon that will stun a variety of builds so your unacs can hammer them I'll just suggest large missiles, sure jelly fish is great for unacs to use but as the person on your team who's actually a human being playing I think you could use large missiles to pretty good effect, they're also an okay excuse to equip single shoulder slot arms



#7 rogan

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 02:15 PM

cannons: for the most part you can stunlock with a lot of these, it might be the only instance when firing stability plays into stunning people (but only with a tank) a ready position ac with a ke cannon or heat cannon is junk.

Firing stability has no noteworthy impact on cannon weapon reload when using a tank. If you can stunlock them in the first place it doesn't matter if you have your cannons on KE arms with 120 firing stability or CE arms with 199 firing stability.

 

Also, given latency only a few cannons can achieve stunlocks. Knockers (300 tuning), K0-9K2 cannons (iffy unless using power based tuning and even then only vs certain builds), the Prylid (Au-J-K28) HEAT cannons, and sniper cannons used by quads only. Otherwise the "stunlock" is very easy to escape. None of these are overly reliable to begin with, even Knockers have trouble achieving a stunlock unless you are fighting other tanks or can pin your opponent against a wall.

 

For clarity purposes i'm defining a stunlock as once the first hit connects you locked in place until the cannon(s) run out of ammo or you die.


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#8 Maze

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 02:37 PM

Firing stability has no noteworthy impact on cannon weapon reload when using a tank. If you can stunlock them in the first place it doesn't matter if you have your cannons on KE arms with 120 firing stability or CE arms with 199 firing stability.

Now that I think about it this is true since most cannons stats don't really lend themselves to be subject to a rof increase.



#9 Leos Klein

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 12:11 AM

I'm not trying to stunlock LWBPs, I'm trying to stunlock tanks, quads, and HWBPs with a UNAC. It's worth  shot, but the only combo that seems to work is quad sniper cannons, or tank Cannon/Railcannon/HSM combos, but the long lock time and low muzzle velocity makes it work terribly against anything fast, and the sniper cannon has the obvious ready position problem, and limited ammo.

 

I've gotten the quad (which Rogan helped test) to be able to reliably hit, stunlock (enough to get 3-5 hits at a time off), and destroy an enemy tank UNAC from ready position in a team match, but not against a human tank player. The biggest problem is that it purges at 150 range, and so it's constantly purging before the tanks even show up to the battle because of lightweights trying to (stupidly) rush early on. In one case, a dual autocannon tank just rushed it in glide boost and made it purge early and then kicked it while it was evading.

 

On maps like Pask Field, Karmat Base, or either Route maps though, it manages to get 6-10 sniper cannon hits on the enemy, forcing a decent stunlock for the duration of the hits. Unlike a human, the UNAC can and will fire at perfect intervals, and has decent tracking with the SC, which is where the advantage comes in. I'm sure a better sniper cannon player than me could use this to even greater effect, but I'm shit with sniper cannons unless it's on a tunnel map. 

 

If I can figure this out, then on some maps it would be able to shut down an enemy tank or HWBP from 400+ range, giving me a massive advantage early on in the match. For that reason I'm still working on the details.



#10 SwiiTcHBacK

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 03:43 AM

Ko cannon/heat cannon with subs will stun lock heavies+tanks semi-regularly.. HSM aren't capable of stun locking anything bigger than a LW/light mid in this game and most of those will just lag through them. 



#11 Leos Klein

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 04:12 AM

UNACs aren't good at firing in sequence, so that strategy doesn't work so well. As for HSM, I'm talking about the 1900 impact force ones, which can still stun lower RR ACs. They fire too slow to stunlock, but they work well in combination with other high impact weapons since you can fire 4 at a time with dual shoulder units.



#12 Nescient

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 08:48 AM

Have you tried SC weapon arms? 


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#13 Leos Klein

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 09:16 AM

Unfortunately, there's no sniper cannon chip for the SC weapon arms, leaving only the Howitzer arms (which are not that accurate). Combined with regular movement, and the UNAC's accuracy is just too low.

 

However, and I didn't consider this, perhaps a tetrapod that lands to use its sniper cannon weapon arms, not going into ready position but just staying relatively still, might give it better aiming accuracy. It's a thought, but I do think that the weapon arms still fire slower than a quad in ready position.

 

Another thought is a tank that uses the SC weapon arms for long range, staying still and taking advantage of its turning speed buff, trying to stunlock with them, and then turns into a highly mobile autocannon tank when closed in on. I like that idea too. 



#14 HustlerOne

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 10:03 AM

Unfortunately, there's no sniper cannon chip for the SC weapon arms, leaving only the Howitzer arms (which are not that accurate). Combined with regular movement, and the UNAC's accuracy is just too low.

 

However, and I didn't consider this, perhaps a tetrapod that lands to use its sniper cannon weapon arms, not going into ready position but just staying relatively still, might give it better aiming accuracy. It's a thought, but I do think that the weapon arms still fire slower than a quad in ready position.

 

Another thought is a tank that uses the SC weapon arms for long range, staying still and taking advantage of its turning speed buff, trying to stunlock with them, and then turns into a highly mobile autocannon tank when closed in on. I like that idea too. 

The Signs/10 unac aims it pretty well (for unac standards)imo.



#15 rogan

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 02:26 PM

The Signs/10 unac aims it pretty well (for unac standards)imo.

Only vs other UNACs. It makes a decent anti-UNAC UNAC.

 

Building a ready position sniper cannon quad UNAC has been a project of mine for a while. I just can't get it to work. I'm not running into accuracy issues, the UNAC aims fine with the sniper cannon, if not as good as a human, and will hit fat stuff without too much trouble.

 

The issue I keep running into is the UNAC getting stuck in ready position with the sniper cannon out of ammo. At this point you can walk up to the UNAC and kick it for free. No boosters needed. It does this regardless of ready position disengagement range, movement chip settings, purge conditions, whatever.

 

Half the time the opponent closes in before the SC runs out of ammo, it is then purged and the UNAC switches to a second operation. Additionally I can get it to use the sniper cannon with one operation fine, it shoots till it runs out of ammo, purges the SC and continues with its operations. Its when I try to make it change operation after the SC is out of ammo that I run into trouble. The UNAC fires all its SC ammo then changes to the second operation without leaving ready position or purging the SC. Its really got me scratching my head and I haven't been able to solve it yet.

 

Of course, none of this is on topic. The only stat which I can think of which effects cannon reload is the recoil buffering stat on quad legs. Even then, I think it only has an effect on Sniper Cannons. I have no idea why other cannon weapons are unaffected.


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#16 Leos Klein

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 08:52 PM

What's on your alternate arm, Rogan? Try using a weapon chip for that arm (the one that isn't a sniper cannon). If you're using a shield, that might be why. When the cannon runs out of ammo it will try to "attack" with the other arm, moving it out of ready position. Then it will change operation right as the cannon is purged.

 

The SC unac is "acceptable" but only has a narrow range where it can hit reliably also, between 150m and 250m. I'm thinking more like the 400+ range.

 

I'm going to see how reload time is with rail cannons also, which may prove to be more accurate at those ranges.



#17 rogan

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 07:18 AM

What's on your alternate arm, Rogan? Try using a weapon chip for that arm (the one that isn't a sniper cannon). If you're using a shield, that might be why. When the cannon runs out of ammo it will try to "attack" with the other arm, moving it out of ready position. Then it will change operation right as the cannon is purged.

If its really this simple of a fix im going to go facedesk for a while.

 

Standby...

 

EDIT: no good, the UNAC still changes to its second operation without leaving ready position. The cannon chip isn't even active.

 

Pretty certain that Rails are completely unaffected.


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#18 HustlerOne

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 03:28 PM

What's on your alternate arm, Rogan? Try using a weapon chip for that arm (the one that isn't a sniper cannon). If you're using a shield, that might be why. When the cannon runs out of ammo it will try to "attack" with the other arm, moving it out of ready position. Then it will change operation right as the cannon is purged.

 

The SC unac is "acceptable" but only has a narrow range where it can hit reliably also, between 150m and 250m. I'm thinking more like the 400+ range.

 

I'm going to see how reload time is with rail cannons also, which may prove to be more accurate at those ranges.

Unacs cant do predictive firing which is a core essential for scing. Thats why it only hits reliably at that range, hardly time to react from a 1k+ muzzle at 150m



#19 Leos Klein

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 04:30 PM

I can get a UNAC to hit a slow target at 300m with a fast enough cannon (1500 muzzle) but the weapon arms are particularly inaccurate.

 

But yeah, if the UNAC could lead targets that would dramatically change things, especially with Howitzers and HEAT howies. 



#20 rogan

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 04:45 PM

Unacs cant do predictive firing which is a core essential for scing.

This is completely true. But hes not trying to get the UNAC to be a Sniper Cannon Boss. (Unless you are, at which point disregard the rest of this post)

 

Even if the UNAC can only hit tanks, and only for three shots, so long as it can do so on a consistent basis that would be a huge help to a UNAC squad. Having a tank lose half its AP off the bat (In some cases it will drop a cannon for a shield) makes it much easier to deal with. I would say thats worth one weapon slot on a UNAC squad.


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