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#1 Maze

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 04:00 AM

 Head:Hd-Y-F08 DAIJI SHINJIN

 

Core:CA-215 honestly I had this set to the ryugen mod in testing of this build so far the stat difference is very small but you may hit one important ke threshold with the standard, correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

Arms:KOCHO mdl.1

 

Legs:AOI mdl.2

 

FCS:FA-303

 

Generator: Ge-D-G23

 

Booster:Tokonatsu

 

Recon:ASATORI mdl.1

 

Right weapons:KURENAI mdl.2(tuning 3,0,0) AM/BRA-125(tuning 1,0,2)

 

Left weapons:Au-V-G37(tuning 2,1,0) Au-B-A17(tuning 2,0,1)

 

Shoulder weapon:Su-J-G17

 

some stats:

 

ke:1578

ce:1689

te:2918

 

boost:141

h boost:286

en regen:4,053

turning:707

 

This is mostly a build I put together to test out alternate tunings on certain weapons the only real huge damage dealer is its ce missiles making it lose steam early on in the battle if used too recklessly, but if used carefully this ac can actually be very obnoxious close to mid range thanks to its tunings allowing for some very consistent damage and its kicking power.



#2 rogan

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 08:57 AM

I don't understand what the build is trying to do with those weapons and tuning. I'm guessing the frame was just thrown together to support the weapons while maintaining dual shoulder units. Sorry Maze, but I just don't get this one, at all. Can you explain the weapon tuning and goals of the set up? Even if its just testing out different set ups are you trying to achieve any specific results?


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#3 FromCheng

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 10:28 PM

The one thing I'm most curious about is why you tuned the shotgun to 0/2/1. At that tune you'd be better off with KURENAI which is across the board superior  for a rather small difference in MV and great lock time.


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#4 Maze

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 08:04 PM

I don't understand what the build is trying to do with those weapons and tuning. I'm guessing the frame was just thrown together to support the weapons while maintaining dual shoulder units. Sorry Maze, but I just don't get this one, at all. Can you explain the weapon tuning and goals of the set up? Even if its just testing out different set ups are you trying to achieve any specific results?

Mainly it was a build to test out some lesser used weapons or weapon tunings against lightweights, the frame was built around taking combat in fairly short burst rather then pop shotting or sustained fire, to this extent you could just say yeah I did what I could to support the weapons the build uses while maintaining dual shoulder units and to a certain extent I'd be lying if I disagreed and will admit to over commiting to the missiles quite a bit actually the build would be much better of If I'd dropped some missile performance for normal weapon focus especially considering this is a heavy meant to test certain tunings against light units, in that case I'll say I'd probably be better off going tolima or mid even.

 

The builds weapons do tend to pretty reliably hit fast units from what I've managed to test, although It really could be argued that a chain gun would better then a shotgun but this ac is not fast and does not have great endurance so I find that getting one or two good shotgun blast off before the target runs is often more easily achieved and reliable(that being said I will have to update the OP Cheng actually pointed out something that was an oversight on my part). as for the cemg I'm actually really satisfied by its current tuning and performance it hits reliable and at a good rate with decent damage across multiple ranges. The rifle and battle rifle where picked mainly to make an attempt at better combating lrj snipers or lightweight long range units, in general it really doesn't take much to out dps sniper rifles and even some slight accuracy tuning seems enough to get some very reliable hits off with the higher mv br's and high power rifles.

 

@Cheng: Thanks for pointing that out about the shotgun it has much better performance especially as range increases I'll update the op soon I just want to make sure I have the VD name of the weapon.

 

@Rogan and Cheng: Sorry for taking so long to give such a disjointed answer I haven't been well lately so my ability to actually pick the game up and provide any good explanations on what I was trying to do has been pretty impaired, I hope my reply has been somewhat helpful though.



#5 Leos Klein

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 12:37 PM

I don't think there's a KE benefit to having CA-215 over the retrofit. Hitting 1700 CE is more important, because you're in semi effective range. Going from 1700 to 1750 makes a huge jump in defense compared to 1650 to 1700, because the semi effective range for most battle rifles (2200 CE) starts at 1689 and ends at 2036 when you start actually blocking some of them.

 

So for CE, every point between 1700 and 2036 matters way more than every point between 1450 and 1700.

For KE, there are few weapons that hit over 1505 that are worth blocking, and 1505 is the end of the semi effective range to cover most KE weapons. 

 

Explained more generally, the breaking points for most defenses where there is a chasm between this and heavy hitting weapons (sniper rifles, laser rifles, etc.) are:

1900 KE

2200 CE 

1500 TE

 

Beyond these benchmarks, there are almost not benefits to increasing defense, increase AP instead.

 

Lower bounds:

1505 KE

1111 CE

833 TE

 

Below these benchmarks, you are crippling yourself to most powerful weapons.

 

Between those two bounds, are semi effective ranges, where your marginal damage taken per hit is much lower for every added point of defense.

 

Semi effective ranges go from 1.3 times below the defense, up to the defense. In THESE ranges, you get a huge benefit for increasing your defense, but not as much as you would if you reach the benchmarks. Once you hit as many benchmarks as you can, then you spend your extra "defense points" maximizing within these ranges:

 

1505 - 1900 KE (everything is semi effective here, so it's an even trade between lower and upper bounds)

1692 - 2200 CE (There are no semi effective benefits between 1111 and 1692, and no effective benefits)

1152 - 1500 TE (Again, no semi effective benefits between 833 and 1152, but there ARE effective benefits between 833 and 1200)

 

Since CE has no effective or semi effective benefits between 1111 and 1692, in almost all cases, you can improve defense elsewhere. This means that 1700 KE, 1111 CE, and 2000 TE is far superior to 1500 KE, 1400 CE, and 2000 TE, even though the second set adds up to a higher value.

 

That's because your gain between 1111 CE and 1689 Ce, while 500 defense points, affects your general survivability less than adding an extra 200 KE, which is in the semi effective range, giving you much better defenses on average.

 

 

So I would suggest aiming more for 1700 KE, and if you can't hit that, maximizing AP/stability/mobility instead of defenses. 

 

 

 

Now obviously there's some metagame effect where, if you know your opponent is running battle rifles and no KE weapons, you can get more of a benefit by keeping KE low to keep CE high... but that doesn't necessarily mean much unless you know in advance what weapons your opponent is running.



#6 bottle

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 02:54 PM

Wow I learned defence just now. (Still not using them)

#7 Maze

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 04:25 PM

I don't think there's a KE benefit to having CA-215 over the retrofit. Hitting 1700 CE is more important, because you're in semi effective range. Going from 1700 to 1750 makes a huge jump in defense compared to 1650 to 1700, because the semi effective range for most battle rifles (2200 CE) starts at 1689 and ends at 2036 when you start actually blocking some of them.

 

So for CE, every point between 1700 and 2036 matters way more than every point between 1450 and 1700.

For KE, there are few weapons that hit over 1505 that are worth blocking, and 1505 is the end of the semi effective range to cover most KE weapons. 

 

Explained more generally, the breaking points for most defenses where there is a chasm between this and heavy hitting weapons (sniper rifles, laser rifles, etc.) are:

1900 KE

2200 CE 

1500 TE

 

Beyond these benchmarks, there are almost not benefits to increasing defense, increase AP instead.

 

Lower bounds:

1505 KE

1111 CE

833 TE

 

Below these benchmarks, you are crippling yourself to most powerful weapons.

 

Between those two bounds, are semi effective ranges, where your marginal damage taken per hit is much lower for every added point of defense.

 

Semi effective ranges go from 1.3 times below the defense, up to the defense. In THESE ranges, you get a huge benefit for increasing your defense, but not as much as you would if you reach the benchmarks. Once you hit as many benchmarks as you can, then you spend your extra "defense points" maximizing within these ranges:

 

1505 - 1900 KE (everything is semi effective here, so it's an even trade between lower and upper bounds)

1692 - 2200 CE (There are no semi effective benefits between 1111 and 1692, and no effective benefits)

1152 - 1500 TE (Again, no semi effective benefits between 833 and 1152, but there ARE effective benefits between 833 and 1200)

 

Since CE has no effective or semi effective benefits between 1111 and 1692, in almost all cases, you can improve defense elsewhere. This means that 1700 KE, 1111 CE, and 2000 TE is far superior to 1500 KE, 1400 CE, and 2000 TE, even though the second set adds up to a higher value.

 

That's because your gain between 1111 CE and 1689 Ce, while 500 defense points, affects your general survivability less than adding an extra 200 KE, which is in the semi effective range, giving you much better defenses on average.

 

 

So I would suggest aiming more for 1700 KE, and if you can't hit that, maximizing AP/stability/mobility instead of defenses. 

 

 

 

Now obviously there's some metagame effect where, if you know your opponent is running battle rifles and no KE weapons, you can get more of a benefit by keeping KE low to keep CE high... but that doesn't necessarily mean much unless you know in advance what weapons your opponent is running.

I tried some stuff based off these suggestions. I can see your logic even though you didn't need this whole half page of explanation for it. I could go for 1700 ke but combat wise it made the builds loadout much much less effective and with it's current defense using CA-215 modded and not modded it doesn't take much damage from alot of weapons so I find myself pretty content with the frame currently in actuality.Thank you for posting this though some results in testing lead to me figuring out something for a completely different build. honestly though simply for the sake of argument and I wonder what your opinion on the tunings vs meta is?



#8 rogan

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 05:25 AM

@Defense Numbers:
2200 CE - except for the stupid super streks which throw this right out the window. Frustrating weapons those.


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#9 Dapper Chap

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:47 AM

@roland

 

Hd-G-A88

Co-D-S29

Ar-M-W48 (Hokaibo)

AOI mdl.1

 

KE 1204

CE 2790

TE 3029

AP 40818

 

Blocks the streks :)

This is what my Hped looks like, with a KE shield and a CIWS for further protection. It's good for a laugh and as a way to punish builds that are overly meta. You just have to pray that your opponent doesn't pack a rifle.



#10 Leos Klein

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:14 AM

There's some interesting quirks of those defense mechanics too with certain leg types. It means that any HWBP that is maximizing its defense type, isn't going to be using CE arms. This means they are going to run dual shoulders usually, with lower firing stability. This means a HWBP sniper is likely to have a single shoulder and lower KE defense, which can be taken advantage of. 

 

Additionally, Quads have a huge loss in turning speed to get strong TE and KE defenses. So they can be taken advantage of in situations like that as well. 

 

Knowing what defense compromises have to be made to adapt to what map and weapon sets means predicting an enemy's weakness (either in defense, or in types of mobility/lock on speed/weapon choices) is not very hard most of the time.



#11 rogan

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:47 AM

@roland

 

Hd-G-A88

Co-D-S29

Ar-M-W48 (Hokaibo)

AOI mdl.1

 

KE 1204

CE 2790

TE 3029

AP 40818

 

Blocks the streks :)

This is what my Hped looks like, with a KE shield and a CIWS for further protection. It's good for a laugh and as a way to punish builds that are overly meta. You just have to pray that your opponent doesn't pack a rifle.

I ran across one of these on JP last week. (It was a merc) I can definitely see it working. However, I feel safer in my CE tank as opposed to a CE HBP.


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#12 Leos Klein

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 10:56 AM

Given the slow muzzle velocity and lock time of streks, there's probably a much larger benefit blocking them in a tank than in a HWBP, as a tank can be blue-locked. Doesn't mean it's not useful in a HWBP, but the survival time gained, along with the compromise made, is more harsh.



#13 dikhed7

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 07:36 PM

Wow I learned defence just now. (Still not using them)

Defenses are for chumps anyways. A real man's AC has > 1k in each category.

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#14 Leos Klein

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 04:35 PM

Defenses are for chumps anyways. A real man's AC has > 1k in each category.

 

I think you mean < for the joke, but yes a good AC should have > 1000 defense in each category. Lightweights excepted, though even for them I'd rather have 1500/1000/1000 than more speed and something abysmal like 1500/500/500.



#15 dikhed7

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 05:31 PM

> 1K = less than 1k. It's whatever though. And depending on the circumstances (as with everything in this game) the speed makes up for the lack of defenses. I put TE defenses as a priority on a LW, stacking TE also helps stack AP.

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#16 Leos Klein

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 02:26 AM

Nah, you've still got it backwards. > = Greater than, < = Less than. Defenses > 1000 = Defenses "Greater than" 1000.

 

The thing is, being lighter with lower defenses improves your peak speed, but not your overall speed in the middle of an actual match. That's because there's a small effect on accelleration.

 

Higher speed only makes you survive longer because it increases the necessary muzzle velocity the enemy has to have to lead you properly with lock on, and it lets you enter and exit cover faster. However, that entry and exit isn't that much faster because you're still accelerating during that.

 

That being said, being lightweight gives you a huge tactical advantage in controlling range and out-turning the opponent, which is less of a defensive thing but much more of an offensive thing. 



#17 dikhed7

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 09:29 AM

.

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#18 rogan

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 01:18 PM

 

 

The thing is, being lighter with lower defenses improves your peak speed, but not your overall speed in the middle of an actual match. That's because there's a small effect on accelleration.

 

Higher speed only makes you survive longer because it increases the necessary muzzle velocity the enemy has to have to lead you properly with lock on, and it lets you enter and exit cover faster. However, that entry and exit isn't that much faster because you're still accelerating during that.

 

That being said, being lightweight gives you a huge tactical advantage in controlling range and out-turning the opponent, which is less of a defensive thing but much more of an offensive thing. 

I think I get what you are trying to allude too. In short: Weight has a greater effect on top speed while not having as strong of an affect on acceleration. Additionally that higher acceleration gives a greater advantage during combat, not necessarily top speed. As such the advantage gained from underweighting, apart from derf's obviously greater SWAG, is minimal.

 

Am I at least in the ballpark?

 

Truth be told acceleration was kinda interesting in the older games, and IIRC it was ultimately the reason for the FLEET booster (I think its called the TP) was frowned upon in PvP. One of the older players said it best "TP stays a full power the entire match". The TP booster had very short acceleration time due to its stats. So while it might take the gull or volute2 a second or two to reach their top speed it took TP less than half that.

 

Acceleration did carry over somewhat in 4th gen but the effect was very minimal outside of using specific boosters, namely virtue mains. However, I really don't think it has any noteworthy effect on 5th gen play, since you can use wall jumps to rapidly change direction, turn, or other useful things. Outside of maybe LRJs which their silly jumping performance.


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#19 Sash

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 04:11 PM

I don't get why there's any talk of forcing out higher speeds or acceleration on a Heavyweight like this. Aoi.2 is middle of the road in terms of HBP mobility numbers. If you wanna move like Goku just use a basic Tolima or Emei - they have defenses nearly equivalent to the frame in the OP.

 

Side note, I see a lot of CE Damage on a Heavy with limited methods of breaking Shields.

 

I suggest a rework of the Loadout an an overhaul or total scrap on the Frame. Any benefits gained from Kocho on Aoi.2 are quickly overshadowed by the drawbacks of the lowered defenses.


you fucking tryhard

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#20 Maze

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 05:26 PM

I don't get why there's any talk of forcing out higher speeds or acceleration on a Heavyweight like this. Aoi.2 is middle of the road in terms of HBP mobility numbers. If you wanna move like Goku just use a basic Tolima or Emei - they have defenses nearly equivalent to the frame in the OP.

 

Side note, I see a lot of CE Damage on a Heavy with limited methods of breaking Shields.

 

I suggest a rework of the Loadout an an overhaul or total scrap on the Frame. Any benefits gained from Kocho on Aoi.2 are quickly overshadowed by the drawbacks of the lowered defenses.

Honestly Aoi.2 is the slowest I like to go, and I'll say there's a pretty big gap between 280 high boost speed and 300 high boost speed where nothing really useful happens (also about 140 to around 160 standard speed) so I don't see a big benefit in going heavier to block out more cause this ac is perfectly capable of dodging plenty of weapons and I don't see the point of going faster with this build cause it'd give it less survivability vs what it can't dodge or maneuver around and a huge boost in mobility to the point where the ac would actually benefit would better serve a large variety of other builds

 

I've already noticed your second statement in testing sash and yes it is very annoying to break shields with this lol. Thats why I made this http://armoredcorele...iefheavy-biped/the skirmisher pretty much served as a prototype for the build linked here although I still hesitate to call that one done.






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