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#1 Maze

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:20 AM

Head:Hd-F-Y17

Core:CA-215

Arms:KOCHO mdl.1

Legs:AOI mdl.2

FCS:FA-303

Generator:Ge-D-G23

Booster:Tokonatsu

Recon:ASATORI mdl.1

Right arm weapons:AM/GGA-115, Bay:Au-C-H22 both full power tuned.

Left arm weapons:Au-V-G39, Bay:WAKAKUSA mdl.2 both full power tuned.

Shoulder unit:Su-J-G17

 

 

AP:38,690

 

KE:1581, CE:1753, TE2920

 

EN regen:4343,booster speed:139, quick boost speed:281,turning:697

 

RR:1250,stability:1040

 

A dps heavy I've been having some fun with lately. normally I don't like builds like this and it's not cause I have some view against holding triggers or dps focused gameplay, I just don't like the noises they used for the machingun type weapons in fifth gen ac games.



#2 Leos Klein

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 05:34 AM

I wonder if this wouldn't be better off with the Barry Bull arms instead of Kocho. Kocho gives you 30 firing stability, but your'e not hitting CE benchmarks with it. The other tradeoffs (gives you a LOT more EN regen, higher AP) would seem to be worth it. That, or (probably better) go with a single-shoulder CE unit, raise your CE defense over 2036, and use the extra firing stability for your rapid fire weapons.

 

As for the weapons... I'm not sure what the goal is here. I'd drop the machine gun for a rapid-tuned rifle anyway, which gives you better damage over more ranges with more accuracy.



#3 ___

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 06:16 AM

Gats tend to hit more and don't drain your energy reserves though Leos. Although there is more dps with rapid rifles if they hit continuously enough.

I don't understand the reason for Kocho arms over W48s apart from the dual shoulder?

Any reasoning Maze?

#4 Maze

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 07:26 AM

you could go for more defense and performance from a single slot arm and by all means do in many cases KOCHO is trash, but the anti light and mid potential that it's current swarms of G17's give are really hard to pass up especially with it's current loadout I've nearly insta killed a couple of unfortunate lights and mids via missile swarm dps or laser rifle stagger in combination with the missiles. that's not saying G17's are perfect they have limited ammo and are not super hard to dodge so it definitely takes some trigger discipline.

 

also @leos with the acs current lock range and mobility it really gets no benefit from dps rifles in practice sadly.



#5 rogan

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 07:55 AM

DPS rifles are an odd beast. IIRC you get higher DPS with a gatling gun vs higher KE targets. The cut off is allegedly around 1600, but don't quote me on that. So without stagger support the gat is better. The rifle might drain more too but I suppose that depends on the model in question.

 

Gats are also stupid accurate at ranges they have no right to be hitting at but thats another issue.


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#6 Leos Klein

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 08:21 AM

Rapid fire rifles give you better damage in the 100m to 200m range even ineffective, where most combat happens, because of the decay rate of most gatling guns and their low firing accuracy. A rifle has 95+ firing precision, a gatling gun rarely has over 90 and not without suffering heavy losses in muzzle velocity or firing rate or ammo. After 200m, the accuracy and decay of most rifles starts to drop similarly. 

 

Since the number of hits decreases exponentially with range as the shot spread gets wider (area of a circle formula) the heaviest drop off for accuracy for rifles happens a lot later than gatling guns.

 

I would use TE missiles, Barry bull Arms, highest KE core, highest CE head, a rapid-spec rifle on LA, heat machine gun on RA, then with dual battle rifles in the bay. You can blow through a CE shield easily with the rifle, and anything that can buff out dual BRs is going to be demolished by the TE missiles. The TE Missiles also give you good coverage for lightweights, which you can use the CEMG on too.

 

This would also free up more EN. Use BA-214 and the 16000 regen balance generator, and you could get some decent glide boost pursuit going on with the heavy. I do not like Tokonatsu for its high en drain and low acceleration, but if you jump more than you glide boost, then it might be preferable, since higher HB speed increases your jump length and Aoi Mdl. 2 is one of the further jumping TE legs.



#7 ___

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 09:19 AM

I know you test these things like Dr Frankenstein Leos, so I can't response questioning what you say. I've seen Obliviondoll using the fastest reload rifle with a hmg but at quite close range. Now is the 115 or 206 gatling not better at close range than a rifle? I believe the 206 has the best decay rate. ?

Also, when you say rapid fire rifles are you saying 0/3/0 rapid fire or just rifles with the fastest reload at 3/0/0 or both?

 
Gats are also stupid accurate at ranges they have no right to be hitting at but thats another issue.


Totally agree. You can do decent damage with the E28 fcs (250 range) just as you come into blue lock range with the 115 gat, even tho it's optimal range is 192? I'm guessing off the top of my head but it's something like 192, I don't have stats in front of me.

You can also say the same thing for the shotguns in this game. Taking damage from a shotgun from a player that has only just come up as blue lock on your fcs is just non sensical.

#8 rogan

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 11:03 AM

A: Rapid fire rifles give you better damage in the 100m to 200m range even ineffective, where most combat happens, because of the decay rate of most gatling guns and their low firing accuracy. A rifle has 95+ firing precision, a gatling gun rarely has over 90 and not without suffering heavy losses in muzzle velocity or firing rate or ammo. After 200m, the accuracy and decay of most rifles starts to drop similarly. 

 

B: Since the number of hits decreases exponentially with range as the shot spread gets wider (area of a circle formula) the heaviest drop off for accuracy for rifles happens a lot later than gatling guns.

A: Its possible that I was thinking about 1.02 regs where everyone ran dual gats. But my train of thought more along the lines of hitting those KE stacked builds which have 1870 KE (for HSM) where the gat does damage more quickly. I would have to go back looking through notes to be certain, but I just don't find DPS rifles, without stagger support, to be threatening enough to be worth the bother.

 

If the rifle hits for effective damage I would be willing to believe its a different story.

 

Not sure how 89 accuracy (300 tuning 3500 ammo gat) with 515 muzzle and 260 effective range is a loss of accuracy, fire rate or ammo. DPS rifles (I assume we are discussing the 1376 and 1426 KE attack rifles) do not have stats which are that much higher. In fact the muzzle for the gat is higher than both rifles and the decay rate is as good or better. Unless attack power plays directly into in, this would lead me to believe that the gat reaches slightly further and holds its damage better than either rifle.

 

B: Do you have the decay rate formula on you? I want to run it for the DPS rifles and the 3500 gat.

 

@Fox: actually, I've had little issue with  spamming gats for chip damage using the 280 FCS. Its not like they don't have enough ammo to hold the trigger down all match.

 

Another easy way to test this would be to have a friend and I damage race each other at different ranges. That involves a lot of effort which can likely be skipped via maths.

 

EDIT:

as for the actual build, the frame looks cool but you aren't really taking advantage of your loading cap or camera function. I would run the Berry bull arms like Leos suggests, swap the provo to a K37 or K29 (leaning toward K37) and the FCS to E28 and change the other laser rifle to either another K37 or a CE shield and run HSM or Jupiters in the shoulders. Chip damage all day from 350+ range. Lasers can maul quads or break off a shield for you. Should be pretty fun to play. You do lose out on the G17 missile, which sucks, but it might be too heavy with the weapon set I suggested.


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#9 Leos Klein

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 02:11 AM

@Rogan:

 

Decay rate formula is 100% damage up to the optimal range, then drops according to the decay rate stat at 500m. So if optimal range is 400 and decay rate is 50, it does 100% up until 400m, then from 400 to 500m, it drops linearly down to 50%, then continues to drop at the same rate after 500m. 

 

Firing precision affects the angle of spread (along with firing stability). Since ACs are about 5m in diameter, any time your spread angle exceeds that (depending on the range) you will miss shots even if you've got a perfect lock on and you're pointed right at them. Once the spread angle reaches a range where it exceeds 5m, then the accuracy drops off exponentially after that.

 

The formula I use is the area of the target at range / area of the spread, capped at a value of 1. 

 

125 firing stability and 97 firing precision drops off after around 250m and reaches 50% at about 500m.

125 firing stability and 80 firing accuracy drops off at 50m and reaches 50% at about 100m.

 

So from 100m to 250m, the rifle is going to do a lot more damage more reliably, even though the damage output itself is lower. Once you close in to 100m, many more shots of the gatling gun are hitting so it does a lot more damage than the rifle. 

 

So basically that just says, if you're going to use a gatling gun, make it have high firing precision or use high firing stability or keep it within 100m. Any further away and you're just missing with a lot of shots. 

 

 

Total expected damage from any weapon is a function of the range of combat, decay rate, optimal range, firing precision,firing stability, muzzle velocity and enemy movement speed.



#10 ___

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 05:55 AM



When you say rapid fire rifles are you saying 0/3/0 rapid fire or just rifles with the fastest reload at 3/0/0 or both?

It's kind of reflective of your last post Leos?

#11 dikhed7

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 08:44 AM

Fox, If your comparing gats to rifles then it's prolly 030 tuning valdostas or turnsols.

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#12 rogan

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 09:49 AM

@Rogan:

 

Decay rate formula is 100% damage up to the optimal range, then drops according to the decay rate stat at 500m. So if optimal range is 400 and decay rate is 50, it does 100% up until 400m, then from 400 to 500m, it drops linearly down to 50%, then continues to drop at the same rate after 500m. 

 

Firing precision affects the angle of spread (along with firing stability). Since ACs are about 5m in diameter, any time your spread angle exceeds that (depending on the range) you will miss shots even if you've got a perfect lock on and you're pointed right at them. Once the spread angle reaches a range where it exceeds 5m, then the accuracy drops off exponentially after that.

 

The formula I use is the area of the target at range / area of the spread, capped at a value of 1. 

 

125 firing stability and 97 firing precision drops off after around 250m and reaches 50% at about 500m.

125 firing stability and 80 firing accuracy drops off at 50m and reaches 50% at about 100m.

 

So from 100m to 250m, the rifle is going to do a lot more damage more reliably, even though the damage output itself is lower. Once you close in to 100m, many more shots of the gatling gun are hitting so it does a lot more damage than the rifle. 

 

So basically that just says, if you're going to use a gatling gun, make it have high firing precision or use high firing stability or keep it within 100m. Any further away and you're just missing with a lot of shots. 

 

 

Total expected damage from any weapon is a function of the range of combat, decay rate, optimal range, firing precision,firing stability, muzzle velocity and enemy movement speed.

So its a 50% drop in power after you hit the weapons optimal range number until 500m. Then it continues to drop off afterward. So... is a weapon (Gat or rifle at this point, doesn't matter to me) with an optimal range of 260 doing to same amount of damage at any range between 260 and 500 or is there additional drop out before it hits that 500m mark.

 

Also, if you have the actual math formula post it. I might want to use it at some point. I'm also fairly certain it changes based on weapon class as CE weapons hold their damage the round velocity just slows down.

 

@Derf and Fox: people actually use 030 tuning on rifles? Thats really bad... sure reload goes down, but IIRC every other stat on the weapon gets much worse. Reload tuning only has a use on EN weaponry.


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#13 dikhed7

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 10:10 AM

Rapid tune Valdostas arnt bad. There are better choices for ineffective damage output though.

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#14 Leos Klein

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 10:12 AM

Decay formula:

 

D = Decay Rate

O = Optimal Range

R = Range

K = Damage multiplier

 

If O > R, then (K = 1)

 

If O < R then (K = 500 / R * D/100) 

 

So if your Decay rate is 25, and your optimal range is 150, then it would look like this:

 

0m: 100% damage

50m 100%

100m 100%

150m: 100%

200m: 62.5%

250m: 50% 

300m: 41.6%

350m: 35.7%

 

This is before defenses. So if your weapon does 1500 damage, and the opponent has say, 800 defense, then you suddenly pass into the ineffective range at 250m.

 

As for CE weapons, they just have a very high decay rate value but follow the same formula. 

 

This is only one part of the story though, firing accuracy is a huge impact on damage over range. A change from 99 to 98 accuracy makes a big impact on the number of hits you can make at range, more so than a difference from 90 to 50.

 

The issue is that the highest DPS gatling guns either weigh a ton (3500 ammo), or have shitty accuracy (800 ammo), or are really limited on ammo (300 and 150 ammo). 

 

For firing accuracy, I've created my own estimation formula. It takes the diameter of the AC, divided by the spread of the shots. If the shots spread wider (twice the diameter = 50% of the shots hit).

 

D = Diameter of target (enemy AC is always 5m)

R = Range

A = Firing Accuracy

T = Firing Stability

tan = tangent

rad = degrees to radian conversion 

 

D / (R* tan((rad(50-(A/2)/(/T/100))))). With a maximum value of 1. 

 

GGA-208 has an accuracy of 81, so at 150m with 125 firing stability, that equates to a factor of about 25%. 

 

So that means that 150m, something with a firing accuracy of 81 should only hit about 25% of the time. That number on 199 firing stability arms rises to 40%. 



#15 Maze

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 10:58 AM

I'm pretty sure I've seen the build rogan and leos suggested posted on here before. That would be effective though if it's not on here I know some people that actually run it at least.

 

On paper yes dps rifles are better but like I said in execution I'm noticing better results on alot of heavier builds with chainguns even at some pretty far ranges.  Although if this where a fast tolima,mid, lightweight or even some hrjs a dps rifle would be ideal as those can all get pretty good angles on enemies making their attacks harder to dodge and deal with and would really let you get the most out of your ke damage.



#16 rogan

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 11:47 AM

Decay formula:

 

D = Decay Rate

O = Optimal Range

R = Range

K = Damage multiplier

 

If O > R, then (K = 1)

 

If O < R then (K = 500 / R * D/100) 

 

So if your Decay rate is 25, and your optimal range is 150, then it would look like this:

 

0m: 100% damage

50m 100%

100m 100%

150m: 100%

200m: 62.5%

250m: 50% 

300m: 41.6%

350m: 35.7%

 

This is before defenses. So if your weapon does 1500 damage, and the opponent has say, 800 defense, then you suddenly pass into the ineffective range at 250m.

 

As for CE weapons, they just have a very high decay rate value but follow the same formula. 

 

This is only one part of the story though, firing accuracy is a huge impact on damage over range. A change from 99 to 98 accuracy makes a big impact on the number of hits you can make at range, more so than a difference from 90 to 50.

 

The issue is that the highest DPS gatling guns either weigh a ton (3500 ammo), or have shitty accuracy (800 ammo), or are really limited on ammo (300 and 150 ammo).

That makes much more sense. The way you had it phrased sounded like the drop off was much more rapid and had points where it leveled out rather than being a line.

 

Well yea, defense makes things different. I just wanted the decay rate formula so I could apply it to other weapons if needed. As to the gats, they have different uses and there really isn't a universal one.

 

@Maze: I haven't tried the set up I mentioned so I don't know how it will preform when compared to a CC LM HBP or the newer K37 versions. But it looked like it would be fun.


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#17 ___

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 01:32 PM

"@Derf and Fox: people actually use 030 tuning on rifles? Thats really bad... sure reload goes down, but IIRC every other stat on the weapon gets much worse. Reload tuning only has a use on EN weaponry."

Idk Rogan, that's why I asked. The theory is more shots hitting from rapid fire doing more damage as mentioned with the gat from our selective Leos.

I'll agree with Maze with the damage inflicted with the 115 gat specifically. It does more damage beyond 200m than a rifle as far as I'm concerned but I haven't got the algebra figures to back it up unfortunately.

#18 Maze

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 10:49 PM

@Maze: I haven't tried the set up I mentioned so I don't know how it will preform when compared to a CC LM HBP or the newer K37 versions. But it looked like it would be fun.

 

from what I've seen a build like that can be pretty effective, I don't really see one on this forum though and I don't have time to really get on acvd sadly, but if you or leos have time to stick a build like that together, test it, get it so it plays well then I highly recommend posting that, especially with the dual k37 version.



#19 Maze

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 10:55 AM

Reworked the weapons a little bit it now carries a 3br in place of its handgun allowing it to crush some lights and mids in the blink of an eye and can fire its laser with its gattling gun since tap firing a wakakusa seems to give shockingly good anti-quad damage output I felt this was a logical choice(yes I know sawas could be more effective).



#20 rogan

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 05:32 AM

Reworked the weapons a little bit it now carries a 3br in place of its handgun allowing it to crush some lights and mids in the blink of an eye and can fire its laser with its gattling gun since tap firing a wakakusa seems to give shockingly good anti-quad damage output I felt this was a logical choice(yes I know sawas could be more effective).

Waka has SWAG i guess.

 

I really don't like a lot of the laser rifles. The sawa family outclasses them all so badly that its hardly worth looking at the others. Tap firing with other laser rifles just never impressed me since the only thing you reasonably hit are quads tanks and HBPs. Two of those couldn't care less about tap fires. Some people really like that playstyle though.


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