Jump to content


Photo

SkillBreakeR - ACVD 1v1 Tournament


  • Please log in to reply
72 replies to this topic

#1 FromCheng

FromCheng

    Tolima.

  • Administrators
  • 551 posts
  • LocationTolima.
  • AC Type:
    Tolima
  • PSNID:
    FromCheng FromCheng_EU
  • LIVE Tag:
    N/A

Posted 25 August 2015 - 05:45 AM

post-1-0-04379800-1440471946.png
SkillBreakeR Tournament - Single Side Play (SBR-SSP)
Registration Form: http://goo.gl/forms/ENNhtKLSzy
Bracket Information: http://challonge.com/skillbreakerSSP

Livestream: http://www.twitch.tv/Fromcheng

Information
Start Date: September 26th, 2015
Start Time: 12:00 PM EDT (UTC-4)
Registration Ends: September 18th 12:00 AM EDT (UTC+4)
Game: Armored Core: Verdict Day
Console: PS3
Tournament Format: Double Elimination, Best of 3
*
Versus Type: 1v1
Match Time Limit: 10 Minutes
Limitations: Open builds with restrictions (IE certain parts/combos cannot be used, see below)

*Best of 5 during Top 8

General Rules

Spoiler

Game Rules
Spoiler

Notes
Spoiler

Referees
Spoiler

Part Restrictions
Spoiler

Prizes
Spoiler


Giveaway Prizes
Spoiler

Top 8 Format
Spoiler


-Final Boss, wields Tolima


#2 rogan

rogan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,685 posts
  • AC Type:
    Cannon whore

Posted 25 August 2015 - 07:53 AM

If a player signs up and has to withdraw for real life reasons how does that effect the bracketing? Will their opponent receive a bye for the round or will they have to fight someone else?

 

Do designs have to be submitted before hand to ensure that they comply with part restrictions?

 

The stall rule: Does this apply only to starting a match, or does this include running the clock to win by AP lead?


Anything can be solved with the proper application of explosives

#3 FromCheng

FromCheng

    Tolima.

  • Administrators
  • 551 posts
  • LocationTolima.
  • AC Type:
    Tolima
  • PSNID:
    FromCheng FromCheng_EU
  • LIVE Tag:
    N/A

Posted 25 August 2015 - 08:09 AM

If a player signs up and has to withdraw for real life reasons how does that effect the bracketing? Will their opponent receive a bye for the round or will they have to fight someone else?

 

Do designs have to be submitted before hand to ensure that they comply with part restrictions?

 

The stall rule: Does this apply only to starting a match, or does this include running the clock to win by AP lead?

1. If it happens before bracket is made then they will simply be removed, if it happens after they will be dq'd from bracket during the day of the tournie. 
2. No, it is open build. It will be the competitors responsibility to know and keep track of their builds and whether they comply with restrictions.
3. It applies to starting the match, and only applies to running the clock when it is deemed as being purposeful to stall, troll, or otherwise sabotage/act in a malicious manner during the tournament in accordance with the fair play rule.


-Final Boss, wields Tolima


#4 helamasa

helamasa

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 36 posts
  • LocationFinland
  • AC Type:
    Goat laboratory tech
  • PSNID:
    helamasa

Posted 25 August 2015 - 09:41 AM

So what about weapon arms and UW's?


"Helamasa needs his own wikipedia article to understand these inane self-referential memes he's created."


#5 FromCheng

FromCheng

    Tolima.

  • Administrators
  • 551 posts
  • LocationTolima.
  • AC Type:
    Tolima
  • PSNID:
    FromCheng FromCheng_EU
  • LIVE Tag:
    N/A

Posted 25 August 2015 - 09:47 AM

Weapon arms are all usable as are UWS

-Final Boss, wields Tolima


#6 helamasa

helamasa

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 36 posts
  • LocationFinland
  • AC Type:
    Goat laboratory tech
  • PSNID:
    helamasa

Posted 25 August 2015 - 10:14 AM

WTF man why? Weapon arms are already freaking op. Mark my words this will make the event just heatcannon arms fest.


"Helamasa needs his own wikipedia article to understand these inane self-referential memes he's created."


#7 Gripheenix

Gripheenix

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 205 posts
  • LocationLittle Podunk Town
  • AC Type:
    Jack of All Trades
  • PSNID:
    Rakiokon

Posted 25 August 2015 - 11:23 AM

Okay.  Let me be that guy to poke the bear.

 

Could you explain the reasoning as to why dual shoulder arms are banned, and why there's a restriction to one of a weapon type?  I can understand wanting a little build variety, but this is basically shutting down most burst damage build, and swinging the favor even more in DPS builds' direction than the game already does.  (More-so applies to the weapons, not so much the arms.  The arms choice just seems odd to me.)

 

Also, if there is going to be a sort of 'stall clause', as stated in your response to Rogan, you really should put that in the main rules, somewhere.  Because it isn't there, and I guarantee you that not everyone entering will read every post in this thread.


(Cool things happen when you click on Megaman's face.)

sig-1.png


#8 Soren

Soren

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 59 posts
  • LocationYour head.
  • AC Type:
    Ones with legs.
  • PSNID:
    BHSoren

Posted 25 August 2015 - 02:17 PM

Lol Cornelius legs, arguably the most broken part in the whole game, are allowed but the things that fight against them best (dual HMGs (among other weapons,) and shoulder units,) are banned.

Also RIP snipers. No dual subcomps screws that all to hell.

 

And the second-place prize is better than the first-place prize. If I were in the finals I would throw it. Gooby pls.


cvK0EV9.png

o8ZuuWk.png

8DZUnU1.png


#9 Sash

Sash

    Fucking Tryhard BR Meta-whore.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • AC Type:
    Based 003 3BR God
  • PSNID:
    @JP SashPerennial
  • LIVE Tag:
    Sash X64

Posted 25 August 2015 - 04:05 PM

I expect only the scrubbiest of weapon combos will prevail.


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#10 dikhed7

dikhed7

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 441 posts
  • PSNID:
    dikhed7

Posted 25 August 2015 - 05:50 PM

The man is putting some pretty cool shit up for grabs, why all the ass hurt? No dsrs, no 2 slot HSM sawa spam. Sounds like the bans cleared the path for some interesting ACs. Get up off the meta game, put something together that is original and compete with it.

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#11 FromCheng

FromCheng

    Tolima.

  • Administrators
  • 551 posts
  • LocationTolima.
  • AC Type:
    Tolima
  • PSNID:
    FromCheng FromCheng_EU
  • LIVE Tag:
    N/A

Posted 25 August 2015 - 08:58 PM

Okay.  Let me be that guy to poke the bear.

 

Could you explain the reasoning as to why dual shoulder arms are banned, and why there's a restriction to one of a weapon type?  I can understand wanting a little build variety, but this is basically shutting down most burst damage build, and swinging the favor even more in DPS builds' direction than the game already does.  (More-so applies to the weapons, not so much the arms.  The arms choice just seems odd to me.)

Dual shoulders have been banned for two reasons: to weaken snipers, and weaken damage racers which rely on missiles (VTFs, HSM, Medium Missiles). These two rulesets (no dual wield, no dual shoulder) are paired together to weaken both the snipers and damage racers to make combat slower paced, and more tactical allowing not only greater parts diversity but also increased reliance on skill.


-Final Boss, wields Tolima


#12 Sash

Sash

    Fucking Tryhard BR Meta-whore.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • AC Type:
    Based 003 3BR God
  • PSNID:
    @JP SashPerennial
  • LIVE Tag:
    Sash X64

Posted 25 August 2015 - 10:03 PM

This tournament would be cool if junk parts were all the only permitted parts.

 

Anyhow, for the hell of it, I'll hilariously over-analyze the hypothetical metagame of this tournament. Expect a stupidly overblown post sometime in this week or the next.

 

 

 

The prizes, though, I am certainly interested in.


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#13 Maze

Maze

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 413 posts
  • LocationCalifornia
  • AC Type:
    Howie cqc with Nergal, random crap while mercing.
  • PSNID:
    rottenbreed

Posted 25 August 2015 - 10:38 PM

Those prizes sure do look nice and shiny, but I won't be in this tournament. I do wish to question the banning of mynsky hill in an open build tournament though. good to see someone allowing ap lead at least, matches between cautious players rarely see the opponents actually killing eachother alot of the time.



#14 Gripheenix

Gripheenix

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 205 posts
  • LocationLittle Podunk Town
  • AC Type:
    Jack of All Trades
  • PSNID:
    Rakiokon

Posted 26 August 2015 - 12:43 AM

Dual shoulders have been banned for two reasons: to weaken snipers, and weaken damage racers which rely on missiles (VTFs, HSM, Medium Missiles). These two rulesets (no dual wield, no dual shoulder) are paired together to weaken both the snipers and damage racers to make combat slower paced (1), and more tactical allowing not only greater parts diversity but also increased reliance on skill (2).

(1)  Mission accomplished.  Apart from the occasional Mifeng or well placed kick, I expect a lot of the matches to devolve into tanky, floaty damage racing, where every build will have a shield, one big damage weapon (probably Sawa family laser rifle or Strekoza), either a PMG or a HMG to break the shield that counters their big weapon, and a back-up weapon like a rifle, or a trump card like a pile, with Mathura, large missile, maybe a medium missile or VTF, or CIWS in the shoulder (lots of CIWS, to be sure).  Hope you set match time to 5 minutes, because if not, then the matches will be taking the 10 or 15 minutes, otherwise.

 

(2)  I'm not so sure I agree with this setup being 'more skillful'.  I can see where that point might be implied, but, as I've said, I expect to see a lot of mindless damage racing, since your pop-shotting builds that utilize cover, instead of defenses, to mitigate damage, will be nearly non-existant.  If you honestly want to pit players in a bout of pure game skill and control, then just set everyone up with the exact same build.  That way, there's no bad rolls in the garage.  There's no hard-countering.  It's literally all about how the player controls their movements, and plays out their attacks.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure why snipers/pop-shot/burst damage needed to be 'nerfed'.  One shield, and suddenly, they're literally useless.  And if they come close enough to try and break the shield with something else, they risk getting damage raced.  And I don't say this, just because I use snipers/laser tank, but my experience does account for some of my viewpoints.

 

I honestly think specific build/part restrictions would have been a better choice in this case.  But, hey, not my tournament, right?  And hey, I might be wrong on my predictions.  For the sake of this tournament, I hope I am, honestly.  I may need to remind myself that this is INT, and not the super-efficiency, high-meta JP world...


(Cool things happen when you click on Megaman's face.)

sig-1.png


#15 rogan

rogan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,685 posts
  • AC Type:
    Cannon whore

Posted 26 August 2015 - 04:49 AM

The man is putting some pretty cool shit up for grabs, why all the ass hurt? No dsrs, no 2 slot HSM sawa spam. Sounds like the bans cleared the path for some interesting ACs. Get up off the meta game, put something together that is original and compete with it.

Well the thing with the dual shoulder HSM/VTFs, which seem to be exactly what cheng was trying to limit, aren't really hurt by the ban. I can assure you that while both missiles lose out on some damage output they both function very well as single shoulder missiles. What the dual shoulder did hurt where the missiles trying to compete with those two. Verts in particular are pitiful single shoulder units and the absurd damage from mid missiles just got cut in half.

 

The dual weapon type clause is going to devolve weapon sets into what gripheenix suggested, or you are going to encounter CC close quarters combat mids and quads armed with shield/shotty/3BR/Plasma and either CWIS or a Missile. Both of which are perfectly functional meta builds which completely get around cheng's ban system. I truly think that the players who make it to the finals will be running either the mentioned gats + shield + heavy hitter weapon or the CQC combo i just pointed out, maybe someone will simply change the arms on their CC sawa quad to single shoulder and stick a rifle on the opposite side but i kinda doubt it.

 

@Maze: Clock running during a match, as stated by cheng's answer to my original question, is left up to the judge's digression. "when it is deemed as being purposeful to stall, troll, or otherwise sabotage/act in a malicious manner during the tournament in accordance with the fair play rule." The entire point of clock running is to stall. If I got the AP lead with a perma glide LW and said "I WIN!!!" over my mic then promptly glide boosted away the entire game I run the risk of being DQ'd. So, the way that cheng phrased his answer, it really looks like you are taking your chances with clock running tactics.

 

I think this could have been a fun trouney with different bans and restrictions, but the real issue is the 1v1 system within VD itself. Its not like cheng didn't try to make a solid ban list either. There was a survey sent out last month (or maybe earlier this month, i can't remember) about what players thought the issue was with the 1v1 meta. I can see from some of the bans and the reasoning cheng has given behind them that those surveys were at least read and considered. (This brings warm feelings to my cold black withered heart)

 

Anyway, I'm rambling on. In short, I'll be traveling during this tourney and i'm not motivated to bring my PS3 with me for a 1v1 tourney. I would be for a team based event.


Anything can be solved with the proper application of explosives

#16 FromCheng

FromCheng

    Tolima.

  • Administrators
  • 551 posts
  • LocationTolima.
  • AC Type:
    Tolima
  • PSNID:
    FromCheng FromCheng_EU
  • LIVE Tag:
    N/A

Posted 26 August 2015 - 07:53 AM

(1)  Mission accomplished.  Apart from the occasional Mifeng or well placed kick, I expect a lot of the matches to devolve into tanky, floaty damage racing, where every build will have a shield, one big damage weapon (probably Sawa family laser rifle or Strekoza), either a PMG or a HMG to break the shield that counters their big weapon, and a back-up weapon like a rifle, or a trump card like a pile, with Mathura, large missile, maybe a medium missile or VTF, or CIWS in the shoulder (lots of CIWS, to be sure).  Hope you set match time to 5 minutes, because if not, then the matches will be taking the 10 or 15 minutes, otherwise.

So basically not much different when any other ruleset or not having any bans at all huh? Honestly there is no way to completely stop any of the above stuff, that is just part of how 5th gen is whether we like it or not. The only thing I can say is that I've done my best to test this out beforehand when I was considering different rulesets. There certainly may be better ways to balance out 1v1s, but this is what I concluded to work better-ish taking into account that people wanted to prevent matches ending in quickly, and provide better balance while keeping it fairly simple.

To properly account for everything I would need to create a ruleset banning all meta parts, ban certain setups and dual wield, etc. etc. until it became 10 pages long. No one in their right mind would want to take part in a tournament that complicated, and neither would I.

There is simply not enough data for me to work with to make clear cut and absolute calls on everything because there have been few tournaments and even fewer ban based ones. Even with my tests they encompassed a fairly small area as there are simply too many parts combination and possibility in this game and not enough time to figure them all out in their different scenarios,

The fact of the matter is there is no really way to know how well or poorly this will work until it's all said and done. Maybe it'll be better and revolutionize thingies (probably not). Maybe it'll be worse and the community will sink into a state of morale decay (unlikely). 

tl;dr We'll just have to wait and see.


-Final Boss, wields Tolima


#17 EFF

EFF

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • AC Type:
    whatever works
  • PSNID:
    encefedele
  • SkypeID:
    encefedele

Posted 26 August 2015 - 10:57 AM

just a doubt... are not many of the weapon arms a sort of dual wielded weapons? i mean: why WA heatcannon is allowed if dual podenka is banned?



#18 Gripheenix

Gripheenix

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 205 posts
  • LocationLittle Podunk Town
  • AC Type:
    Jack of All Trades
  • PSNID:
    Rakiokon

Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:07 AM

Look...  I'm not demanding, requesting, or even suggesting that you change the ruling.  I merely asked for some clarification, because I didn't understand the bans.  It seemed like an odd decision.  Following that, I offered my viewpoint on why I'm not a fan of said bans.  Nothing more, nothing less.  In the end, as I stated, this isn't my call.  The only thing I can determine is my own involvement, which, at the moment, is on the fence.  (Unless my words have already secured me a spot on the banned list.)

 

Either way, I do, sincerely, hope this event does well, if for no other reason than to generate a bit more buzz about the game.  But, like you said, we'll just have to wait and see.


(Cool things happen when you click on Megaman's face.)

sig-1.png


#19 EFF

EFF

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • AC Type:
    whatever works
  • PSNID:
    encefedele
  • SkypeID:
    encefedele

Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:24 AM

I guess that the cheng's ban system is due to the result of the survey, so we can only appreciate his efforts in organizing the event respecting the community indications. That said, listen to other points of view and doubts of the players may be useful to clarify the rules to the best...



#20 DominantLegend

DominantLegend

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 165 posts
  • AC Type:
    AC Red Sun
  • PSNID:
    DominantLegend

Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:58 AM

I worried that these reactions would come from this tournament, so I offered Cheng, in private, a significant analysis and advice on rule sets to preempt most of these criticisms a week ago.

 

He did not follow any of my advice.

 

Instead of fighting the metagame by trying to ban the "right" parts, you should focus on changing the tournament format so the metagame discourages exploitative/cheesy play. Give players the ability to quickly adapt to their opponent's build and play style and then counter with their own. The winners are the ones who can adapt and win despite their opponent using exploitative weapons. 

 

ACVD is meta-balanced, meaning that any sufficiently exploitable technique can be countered by altering your design or playstyle. Making matches 2 out of 3 and with AP lead victories, nullifies that, exposing all of the imbalances normally covered through calculated play that isn't as possible now.

 

It's his tournament, he can choose his rules and I will respect that, I think it would be better for everyone if a re-examination of the rules took place, but I would like him to explain his reasoning behind the bans publicly as well. Most of them seem reactionary from people's fears and anecdotes, rather than a focused attempt at making a good rule set.

 

I support the theory and approach of this tournament and I want to maximize its impact in improving the community, but I do not support the use of a low-sample-size survey (particularly when it is an adverse selection problem) to relegate part bans that, I believe, make the matches far less interesting and far more exploitable. I do not support the use of a single-elimination format, I do not support best 2 out of 3, because in this game, both formats are extremely, extremely, exploitable. No amount of part bans is going to solve that.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq