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SkillBreakeR - ACVD 1v1 Tournament


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#21 Soren

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 01:18 PM

Cheng's still living in ACV. Verdict Day already nerfed snipers to hell and back, they don't need to be banned.

 

The man is putting some pretty cool shit up for grabs, why all the ass hurt? No dsrs, no 2 slot HSM sawa spam. Sounds like the bans cleared the path for some interesting ACs. Get up off the meta game, put something together that is original and compete with it.

 

The thing is, tournaments are all about playing seriously, because you want to win said cool shit. The game itself (because it is balanced so crappy,) pretty much forces you to use dual shoulder units or high stability arms if you want to come out on top. If you aren't doing either of those, then what are you doing? Which is another thing. If dual shoulder arms are banned, then stability arms really ought to be as well. Because those are the only other arms really worth using, and without dual shoulders you will more than likely be seeing those primarily.

However this, in turn, forces people to use something BESIDES their main ACs, because 95% of players who actually understand how to play the game have been using this since the beginning. Forcing someone to switch from a build they are comfortable with means they might not compete at their highest level. Which is lame, since there are actual prizes on the line.

Also more often than not, dual shoulder units aren't even un-balanced. Take sniping for instance. You basically need dual subcomps if you want to be a competent sniper. And this also bans people from bringing nothing but piles, because not only can you not use dual ammo reserves, you also cannot have more than 1 piledriver on your AC.  And this is stupid because if a piler wins ANY tournament, he 100% worked for it and his build did not carry him in the slightest. Meaning none of this should ever be banned.

Wanna use a competent sniper cannon tank build? You can't. Howie tank? Nope. Which, in my mind, means all the -actually- interesting and skill-oriented builds are thrown out the window. And I can not see why anyone would ever endorse that.

The point of banning things is supposed to be because they are too powerful. Dual shoulder units, yes, can sometimes be too powerful. Sometimes. ...Depending what's in them and what they are being used in conjunction with. On the flip side, a lot of ACs rely on dual-shoulders to even be viable in the first place. That's all I'm saying.

Also dual-wielding has never been an issue and honestly never will be. And instead of actual build variety, this tournament is instead going to be a close-range trigger-holding fest. Especially since we've thrown viable sniping builds right out the window.

And I still dunno how in the heck people are expected to fight Sawarabi legs, those things are hard enough to win against WITHOUT any stipulations.


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#22 SwiiTcHBacK

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 02:04 PM

Now I think we've seen some of the first legitimate complaints against the rules here from soren..

 

The first being it really hurts melee and manual aim, neither of which are top tier meta without effort and even some of the best players with them are not reliably winning matches due to their difficult nature.

 

The second being it forces people to play with builds they aren't necessarily comfortable with. People who want to use a "signature AC" are hurt because the rules prevent them from doing so. However part of AC is the ability to build and people who can adapt to these rulesets probably have a skill that is not seen as much due to everybody playing meta builds, so that is an up-side.

 

My personal opinion is that sniping was doable before sniper's lock time was buffed and will still be perfectly doable in this tournament with a single sub. DPSers have not really been the strongest duel builds aside from maps with no cover or an abusable height limit. Every map with usable cover favours burst builds and snipers by a long way generally.

 

The biggest issues that exist in this tournament other than what I mentioned at the start of the post that I can see are: Perma-glide on maps where you can do it easily and height limit DPSers.

 

The height limit stalling tactic could fall under the clock running ban, but that is a tricky one. The perma-glide you can't really do anything about without completely banning 1 of the 2 usable booster categories in any meaningful way (HC arms will fall in to being strong here no doubt, although the cries of OP may be a bit too rash).

 

HC arms are strong, and usable against everything, much like streks.. I suppose HC arms are essentially dual wielded subbed streks which does sort of bypass the rules except you lose out on a bit of defense and subs on your secondary weapon set.. If HC arms were not as catch all, particularly with glide boost then it wouldn't be close to being an issue, but it is something to watch out for.

 

Most of the strongest things or atleast most used in the game are "catch all" weapons/strategies. If it can deal damage to almost everything and you can reliably hit almost everything with it, it's used. This is partly due to the defense mechanics in this game and weapons with few downsides or downsides that can be made up for. Streks were used on everything because with subcomputers you could lock onto things regardless of how fast they were and would deal good damage to anything. Snipers were used because they could lock on to everything even close range due to not needing a long range FCS to lock quickly particularly when combined with subcomputers. VTFs were used because they damage basically every frame in the game with good tracking, velocity that catches up to any frame and insanely low lock time which means they are spammable. Unfortunately, a lot of these problems can't be remedied without editing the stats on the weapons themselves, but you can cut down on some of it.

 

Maps are in my opinion the biggest issue, the inability to know what maps you will be able to select aside from FB ones, and half the FB ones do not have large amounts of cover either due to having a wall/tower you can climb to abuse height limit or large spaces between most of the cover. Not that these maps are all bad just because they have space, varied terrain is often good and creates variety in what strategies you can use. The problem comes when there are dominant strategies that are easy to employ on a lot of them.

 

I don't think DPS builds are strong in duels generally. Burst builds have been what have come out on top in most of the duels I've seen where there was usable cover and good players involved. The DPS builds only function when they can completely ignore cover which negates the burst players playstyle. 

 

Final Edit: What is ideal is both DPS and burst styles can compete on relatively even ground. If the DPS player can aggress and stay on the burst player, force the burst player to miss, or play a range game of attrition that deals damage when the burst player is coming in then they will win. If the burst player can force trades in short windows they win. You want to feel players competing for their playstyle and having to work to do so which is what is missing from the game right now (in my opinion). You can't do this on open maps as burst playstyles revolve around using cover..

 

Right now, it is very easy to force trades as a burst player on maps with cover and it is very hard to do so on maps without. There is not really a middle ground here.



#23 HyperVial

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 10:56 AM

lol what's wrong with mynsky hills...


I wonder what will happen when the pilers see this thread.


#24 Sash

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 11:29 AM

Anyhow, for the hell of it, I'll hilariously over-analyze the hypothetical metagame of this tournament. Expect a stupidly overblown post sometime in this week or the next.

 

Here goes. I'll go over this shit ban by ban on a frame- or setup-based basis.post-1-0-20437900-1440127310.png

 

This isn't such a big deal I don't think. The only thing this really hurts are frames that rely on the bulky dual shoulder parts for their defenses.

 

Affected frames include Tanks, Snipers, most Quads, some HRJs, and a few heavies. There may be one or two midweight designs that rely upon dual shoulders as well. The hardest hit by this are, in my opinion, Light Quads, as almost all of their most viable frames attain their bulk and defenses through use of dual shoulders. Will that be a problem, though? I think it is hard to say. Light Quads are highly versatile, and I am sure that any determined pilot will simply find another combination of frame parts to retain their bulk.

 

On the far ends of the spectrum, however, Tanks and Lightweighst (including LRJs) have lost a key component in their viability (in the case of some builds, such as the most common LRJ and LW frames, and the most common Elbrus [Mod] Frame + Fat Tank Frames). Lacking access to both the Barry Bull and AD-134 arms means that Lightweight designs will need to look elsewhere for their defenses and supplemental firepower. This is extremely apparent in the cases of Lightweight Sniper builds and the dreaded Kumo LRJ, as these frames now lack the ability to equip dual subcomputers or easily hit the common minimum defense numbers.

 

What will this mean? Well, I suspect that this may increase the viability of some of the chubbier builds out there since their usage was restricted by their obvious F- matchups against lightweight snipers and lightweight melee builds. I will not miss this caveat though - most of the builds checked by LW ACs are still at a significant disadvantage in their respective matchups, as they are often too slow to evade even blue-locked snipers or a skilled melee-user without significant counterplay. The defense drops, in my opinion, are more significant - meaning that things like Rifles and PMGs could see a rise in usage due to LWs being forced to either bulk up significantly and lose speed, or keep speed and go with paper-thin defense spreads.

 

Anyhow, I suppose we should move onto the next one.

post-1-0-62144600-1440136291.png

 

Ok, we all sorta know that most of the most viable setups in this game are based around dual wielding a pair of powerful weapons - sometimes two pair. Anyhow, I may just put this in perspective - double the firepower means double the damage output, it does not mean the weapons on their own are gonna hit any less hard, it simply means that the weapons will take longer to kill their target - or accumulate damage.

 

The more significant problem, in my view, will be ammo conservation. Weapons that are typically dual-wielded usually also have a rather shoddy ammunition count. You normally don't notice this when you have two weapons (because your target is dead already), but allow me to draw attention to how 65 strek rounds do not go as far as 130. Likewise, 12 K37 rounds do not go as far as 24.

 

I may also want to put in here now, while we're on this tangent (and while it is more applicable to the dual shoulder ban), that dual shoulder missiles don't decrease the total damage that the missiles can do, it will merely force the player to fit in more volleys to make up for the reduced output.

 

If there's anything that you, the reader, get out of this, it is that banning dual shoulders reduced the damage output of each volley of missiles, but not their total damage output. Similarly - yet different - the ban on dual weapon combos cuts the damage in half. There is no way around that.

 

Important areas to note that in is that DBR and DSR, DPG, Dual Cannon setups, Dual Melee weapons, etc, will either be split into hybrid setups or relegated to utility roles. You may see BR and SR, or SG and PG. Tanks are perhaps a little less affected. Dedicated Melee builds, however, may no longer see viability. A Pile or Murakumo will still function alright in a 1v1, but Laser Blades will take a big hit to usage (what from having only one blade permitted and only one Amp allowed). Perhaps people will tack on a single moonlight to make up for the lack of two Laser Blades?

 

Moving on, I suppose that I should point out how lots of shotgun, Sawa, or armor-break-based setups will not be suffering too much. Only in cases where Dual Shotgun or Dual Sawas are the crux of the set will there be cause for concern. Many typical armor-break setups do not dual wield any type of weapon, though they frequently make use of dual shoulders to increase the power of their bursts. The one issue I see there is that burst playstyles may have a problem making decisive trades with their enemies. This may be less of a big deal considering that a few common frames are no longer able to retain their defenses - ushering in the use of DPS gear for coverage reasons (or an easy win condition). I suspect that a hybrid burst / DPS build will be most common in this tournament; something which has been said by others in this conversation, I am sure. Of note, one key setup wasn't hurt much at all - only its frame was impacted...

 

While typically seen on a Light Quad, a build running ~

 

Arms: 12-shot // [Any BR]

Bays: [A Shield]* // [A Rifle or Gat]*

Shoulder: HSM (or VTF or a CE Missile) 

[*Any order]

 

~ will only suffer from lack of dual shoulders, but will still have good poke, good DPS, and a threatening burst. Cause for concern is truly just the Light Quad Frame, of which all common variations have lost their arm units.

 

 

 

Well, that's about all I'm in the mood for at the moment. Of note, the most important things to understand are that fights are going to take a little bit longer, coverage options may be forced as opposed to encouraged, and map choice will likely strongly determine how a match will play out and what builds will be used, considering the tournament is a 1v1. Further, the best of three setting is alright in my opinion, but it could really screw people over by forcing a player to play in a different way than they are comfortable with on a disadvantageous map.

 

Some things I may suggest would be that players can agree upon maps to play on in each match. I for one much prefer it when my opponent and I agree on where we will fight, since we typically prefer certain maps and like to play a certain way. It really doesn't feel right to me to fight a tank player on Windy City, for example. Likewise, if boundary-sama murders the shit out of the two of us indiscriminately, it is probably time to swap maps.

 

TL;DR Looks like we're gonna see very map-dependent combat with an emphasis on versatility as opposed to specialization, and with more drawn out or awkward fights wherein the matchup has no obvious edge and both players devolve into damage-racing or short slug-fests pocketed between long poke-wars for positioning. Melee will still be dangerous, as will Sawa Light Quads, albeit the total damage output and longevity of both builds will be hampered.

 

 

As always, if I have neglected to mention something, point it out so we can tear each others heads off talk peaceably.


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#25 LanFede

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 08:29 AM

are dual shields allowed? like 2ke shields but different model or 1ce and 1ke?



#26 FromCheng

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 08:35 AM

As per the rules, only 1 shield is allowed on any AC.


-Final Boss, wields Tolima


#27 LanFede

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 08:44 AM

ok, and about other weapons? ''just 1 br/just 1 pile/just 1 pmg....'' or just 1 of each model? like 1 strekoza and an ubr allowed on same ac?



#28 FromCheng

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 08:50 AM

Only 1 from each category, so only 1 Battle Rifle, 1 Pile, 1 PMG, etc. etc.


-Final Boss, wields Tolima


#29 obliviondoll

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 06:02 PM

This tournament would be cool if junk parts were all the only permitted parts.

 

I'd enter a junk tourney! That would be hilariously fun, imo.


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#30 Sash

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Posted 30 August 2015 - 01:30 AM

I'd enter a junk tourney! That would be hilariously fun, imo.

 

I was in a Junk Battle Royale one time, and it basically devolved into a kickfight once we realized that the heavies buffed each other's gear and could DPS the shit out of the midweights.

 

Real talk though, can we have a Junk tournament? I'd host that shit, I swear. Is there a break coming up soon that would work out?


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#31 dikhed7

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Posted 30 August 2015 - 09:15 AM

+1 for junk tournament

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#32 Skylark_J

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Posted 30 August 2015 - 09:23 AM

I'd participate in a Junk Tourney for a cheeky giggle



#33 DominantLegend

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Posted 30 August 2015 - 02:18 PM

I've done Junk matches before, they are very fun but there's only a few viable builds. The meta seems to point to heavies that buff most weapons, and lightweights that carry heat rockets that beat the heavies.

 

I would set a tournament like that up, if it wasn't for the issue of enforcing junk Gen/Booster/FCS combos on anything but the honor system. However, if we make it junk frame + Junk weapons (which can be easily enforced) then it becomes much easier to do. 

 

I could host a small junk tournament this weekend if people are interested to test the concept. No prizes, just for fun and bragging rights. 



#34 Maze

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Posted 30 August 2015 - 03:16 PM

I've done Junk matches before, they are very fun but there's only a few viable builds. The meta seems to point to heavies that buff most weapons, and lightweights that carry heat rockets that beat the heavies.

 

I would set a tournament like that up, if it wasn't for the issue of enforcing junk Gen/Booster/FCS combos on anything but the honor system. However, if we make it junk frame + Junk weapons (which can be easily enforced) then it becomes much easier to do.

I really don't think people would mind that there's only a handful of useful junk builds. junk fights can be pretty diverse just off of player skill thanks to how low the stat numbers tend to be making people who've really spent alot of time mastering the games mechanics stand out, that along with the fact that players might not be too serious about a junk tournie and use silly builds may make it see build diversity anyways.

 

it's pretty easy to enforce fcs gen and booster combo rules for the most part, the performance of junk internals really tends to stick out and if the tournament has judges (i'm pretty sure there would be some people who'd like to watch and judge junk matches) they could definitely catch anyone trying to cheat such a rule pretty easily I'd think.

 

as for weapons being locked to junk as well, I think that's pretty agreeable as non junk weapons would make it a very very short tournament.



#35 obliviondoll

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 05:31 PM

I've done Junk matches before, they are very fun but there's only a few viable builds. The meta seems to point to heavies that buff most weapons, and lightweights that carry heat rockets that beat the heavies.

 

I would set a tournament like that up, if it wasn't for the issue of enforcing junk Gen/Booster/FCS combos on anything but the honor system. However, if we make it junk frame + Junk weapons (which can be easily enforced) then it becomes much easier to do. 

 

I could host a small junk tournament this weekend if people are interested to test the concept. No prizes, just for fun and bragging rights. 

 

How do you have lights? There are no light junk legs.


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#36 FromCheng

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 02:12 PM

Just a reminder, registration closes next week on September 18th (Friday).


-Final Boss, wields Tolima


#37 Sash

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 03:50 PM

While I am interested in prizes, I am unable to compete in this :(


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#38 FromCheng

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Posted 14 September 2015 - 03:56 PM

Just a quick update video and announcement. Be sure to watch to the end.


-Final Boss, wields Tolima


#39 dikhed7

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 06:42 AM

Awesome^ looking forward to refereeing this and watching the vids with commentary.

Was gonna respond to Disso's post, but he's edited it so nvm


#40 Alexworx

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 05:27 PM

heya its me TYPEALEX. Heard about this from Roman signed up a little too late. if anyone decides to flake ill take their spot. Ill be on PSN around that time lmk thanks






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