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New "Arena" Blueprint/Rough Draft


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#21 Arbitor Nox Caelum

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 10:01 PM

Sorry that I haven't posted here in a bit. I was "training" offline for the tournament mostly (that I couldn't compete in because I asked my apt complexes manager to fix the WiFi... and the WiFi has been down for days since fml), and doing a little brainstorming on this subject, and a handful of other things in my free time.

Watching the SkillBreaker tournament did kind of give me an idea though.

Why not dividing the Arenas up into Weight/Leg Classes? Tanks vs Tanks, Lightweights vs Lightweights or something along those lines. Keeping the one AC Rule maybe.

I havent fully thought it out just yet but i will... eventually. I found out somewhat recently that if i stay awake for too long, I cant sleep until I crash. So I'm currently waiting for the crash but I can barely think straight because I am tired.
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#22 Maze

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 12:28 AM

"Why not dividing the Arenas up into Weight/Leg Classes? Tanks vs Tanks, Lightweights vs Lightweights or something along those lines. Keeping the one AC Rule maybe."


 

This could be fun I feel it'd make the arenas less competitive but it's fully possible only like one or two builds would exist in each category, if such rules were to be used. Also how would you keep track of it would each arena have its own thread or would all players have a win lose sheet encompassing all the arenas they chose to compete in for example something like this:

 

Competitor:Maze

ACS:...

Score: LBP/1W/2L,MBP/NA,HBP/2W/1L,HRJ/NA,LRJ/NA,TANK/3W/4L,QAUD/NA,MIXED/NA

Description:...

 

That's just something I threw together a better version could definitely be made. I would definitely like to see arenas focusing on specific part categories and maybe a few part restrictions, not as a serious competitive movement but just to have fun using builds that would most likely not exist otherwise.



#23 rogan

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 05:00 AM

@ROGAN,
Let it be noted, I don't usually CQ. Takes too long to get battles, and it turns into a jump one guy the fastest to get 4v3 first. Can be fun from time to time with great team play tho; with much nicer maps. I play mostly 1v1, but I LOVE 2v2. That should be the way this game is played. More skill than picking someone off.

@the meta game, I just tire of facing the same builds over again. No creativity. Haven't really played against a good meta yet so maybe someone out there can stomp me and put me in my place. Meta rant done ;)

well 1v1 highlights the same issues that sash already pointed out. I don't know about 2v2 since free battles bore the snot out of me. I generally just stick to running a SCT or some really bizarre builds for fun. 

 

The counter argument to 2v2 being skillful is that many things which apply in a 2v2 apply in 4v4. Gotta cover for each other just the same and work to take out the largest threat first. If 2v2 just devolves into two 1v1s with the winners gaining a bonus round then whats the point. 

 

@meta: you play on international right? I rarely see what I would call meta builds over there outside of the more experienced players. Even then, very few of the veteran players take international CQ seriously and tend to stick to builds which are solidly built but for fun for them to play. If you want to see a brutal meta game go and watch some youtube vids of JP CQ. Even today I still run into teams of 4 sawa quads or 4 LRJs.


Anything can be solved with the proper application of explosives

#24 DominantLegend

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 08:31 AM

Leg class dividing is a bad idea for multiple reasons. Any tournament setup that narrows the choice of build is going to suffer from exploitation. Notice how almost everyone in the final matches of the tournament was using a lightweight shotgun+pulse gun combo or heat cannon weapon arms with regularity? I don't think there was a single match that didn't include at least one pulse gun. That's what happens when you ban dual shoulders.

 

Leg class dividing is going to make every weapon set specifically aimed at those legs weaknesses and really skew the results.

 

As for the "metagame", builds that are advantageous on certain maps or common to see are not "meta" builds. Just using a sawa quad in a 4v4 is not abusing the metagame. Using 4 sawa quads in hopes that the opponent hasn't predicted your choice, is using the metagame. It's the choice to exploit a prediction, rather than just the build itself (which all players can see and test on their own) that makes it part of the metagame. A metagame is dependent on information beyond the actual in-game stats and data itself, asymmetric between players so that one player understands more about what is about to happen than the other. A metagame build is one that only works as well as it does because you can follow trends and choices in people's builds. 



#25 SwiiTcHBacK

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 08:44 AM

There is something to be in favour of 2v2s over 4v4s in that the tactic of "ganging up" leads to a less swift death of the one being ganged up on in 2v2s than it does in 4v4s. It also does broaden the scope of your team so you can cover more ground as a pair. 1v1s, 2v2s and 4v4s all have different dynamics that comes into play and what you can build and be successful. 1v1s you can rely on your own ability and play for the long game without any distractions. 2v2s you have a teammate you need to protect, 4v4s you often have to deal insane damage in order to keep up with the opposing teams.

 

"Notice how almost everyone in the final matches of the tournament was using a lightweight shotgun+pulse gun combo or heat cannon weapon arms with regularity? I don't think there was a single match that didn't include at least one pulse gun. That's what happens when you ban dual shoulders."

 

The reason for this was not the dual shoulders ban it was the dual wield ban and pulse guns are one of the strongest close range weapons in the game and when you have to use 4 weapons on your AC, there are only so many combinations and a pulse gun is basically an auto include if you're in their face. They break shields in 2 shots and lock insanely fast, they deal with fast opponents who don't have good TE.

 

I also  believe many of the veteran players shy away from DPS builds as they deem them unskillful/unfun to play. Lightweights are flashy at the same time as being strong and as such you see a lot of strong players use them. 

 

I was told one of the players raged at seigh for the use of DPS builds that the opponent couldn't deal with despite seigh's often limited piloting. 

 

What is interesting though is what was the prediction for that tournament? Everyone was saying DPS/meta builds would reign supreme and weren't touched by the bans. None of which I believe came to light.

 

DPS builds were strong with no cover, burst builds were strong where there was, but there was a lot of close tense matches that I would like to attribute to the ruleset and overall it seemed to work remarkably well. Heat cannons were competitive but not overpowered with what the good players were using.



#26 DominantLegend

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 09:41 AM

We should have an arena speculation thread on its own. In either case, my point was not necessarily what was effective but that constraints on builds often lead players to tend toward particular strategies, even relatively minor bans.

 

That being said, Crow vs Hela was definitely the highlight and most interest to study of the late-game matches, to me. 



#27 Arbitor Nox Caelum

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 09:55 AM

@Maze

I really don't know. I crashed at like 3 am yesterday. Woke up at 11 am today. Currently waiting for the after crash. Thoughts still aren't all together. I think track them separate like LWB league arena and it's champion, kinda like boxing classes I think. Featherweight, Heavyweight.

If I recall correctly, the main thought was, "Make it like a sport" or something like that.

@Dominant

Let me get back to you because I honestly cannot organize my thoughts right now. Something something common restrictions. It's all gibberish in my head right now.

@Swiitch

I missed your fight with Disso 😢
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#28 SwiiTcHBacK

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 10:19 AM

Well in my opinion none of my fights were very good, so I'd say you didn't miss much. I haven't touched the game in so long and didn't really practice with any of the builds I threw together for the tournament. The second match with disso was close I guess though.



#29 RomannamoR11

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 02:17 PM

@SWITCH I agree with you there man. Haven't played in awhile and tried to get it together before tourney, but no go. My mistakes cost me. Overall I had fun. I would do another. As always,needs more refs to progress smoother.

#30 Arbitor Nox Caelum

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 04:08 PM

I haven't been able to sleep/after crash so my thoughts are still a jumble but I've been awake long enough that I could make sense of them.

@Dominant & @Maze

So yes, dividing the Arena up into leagues.

Lightweight League, Mediumweight League, Heavyweight League, (Super Heavyweight League? for tanks and quads only?)

or

LW-Biped League, LW-Rev-Joint League, MD-Biped League, etc. etc.

With players able to join as many of the leagues as they want but able to register only 1 AC in each league (still reflecting on the One AC rule but going with it for now).

And the Hybrid/Cross/World League where players register one of their ACs from one of their already registered league ACs.

• = Something I'm thinking of but don't know why so I'm putting it here so I don't forget. aka Ignore lol

•Three 3 month seasons with three 1 month off seasons
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#31 Maze

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 04:33 PM

I haven't been able to sleep/after crash so my thoughts are still a jumble but I've been awake long enough that I could make sense of them.

@Dominant & @Maze

So yes, dividing the Arena up into leagues.

Lightweight League, Mediumweight League, Heavyweight League, (Super Heavyweight League? for tanks and quads only?)

or

LW-Biped League, LW-Rev-Joint League, MD-Biped League, etc. etc.

With players able to join as many of the leagues as they want but able to register only 1 AC in each league (still reflecting on the One AC rule but going with it for now).

And the Hybrid/Cross/World League where players register one of their ACs from one of their already registered league ACs.

• = Something I'm thinking of but don't know why so I'm putting it here so I don't forget. aka Ignore lol

•Three 3 month seasons with three 1 month off seasons

It may be a little hard to balance it as for example a laser cannon tank can chunk down a qauds health horribly quick in the right situation, and a lrj with a shotgun can maintain a steady speed across the map cause stagger and stun on most lbps and have an easy kill versus most players in a light category. I also think qauds and tanks should be seperate from the rest of the arena though if you are doing weight classes since both are pretty bad for duelling alot of the time.

 

I do think this is a good Idea and deserves some discussion to be balanced and actually done mostly because I don't see the need for a arena with the same ideas behind it as the previous two. I'll comment further as discussion for rules and stuff evolves and hopefully ends up being less about meta and counter building since those things are largely inevitable in any part category I just hope to see gross imbalances ruled out maybe with a weight restriction on weapon categories who knows be creative.



#32 Arbitor Nox Caelum

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 12:15 PM

Okay, as I was trying to say earlier (but somewhat failed), is that by separating the arena into leagues/classes we do limit what players use in each league but with that comes equal advantage/disadvantage for all players build wise (what I meant by common restrictions).


@Dominant

To that post about dividing leg classes.

But isn't that the point? Everyone will know the weaknesses and strengths of each player's AC. The weapon sets will be geared towards taking down that type of AC. So in a sense, there will be a level of uniformity but won't that just emphasize skill? If everyone uses the same or somewhat the same build, the person who is most skilled fighter should come out on top (I read something in this thread about 2 types of skill, 1 for build and 1 for the fighting I think gotta reread).

@no one in particular

A banlists for a specific weapon after a survey during the 1 month off season (knew I thought of that for a reason). After the 3 month season, a 1 month off season to create weapon banlists for each league (maybe 1 to 2 most used weapons in each league).
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#33 rogan

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 12:49 PM

Okay, as I was trying to say earlier (but somewhat failed), is that by separating the arena into leagues/classes we do limit what players use in each league but with that comes equal advantage/disadvantage for all players build wise (what I meant by common restrictions).


@Dominant

To that post about dividing leg classes.

But isn't that the point? Everyone will know the weaknesses and strengths of each player's AC. The weapon sets will be geared towards taking down that type of AC. So in a sense, there will be a level of uniformity but won't that just emphasize skill? If everyone uses the same or somewhat the same build, the person who is most skilled fighter should come out on top (I read something in this thread about 2 types of skill, 1 for build and 1 for the fighting I think gotta reread).

@no one in particular

A banlists for a specific weapon after a survey during the 1 month off season (knew I thought of that for a reason). After the 3 month season, a 1 month off season to create weapon banlists for each league (maybe 1 to 2 most used weapons in each league).

I'm not sure that uniformity will exist as much as everyone runs the same build. I expect there will be many builds which are very similar, and some builds which are built to counter the dominate build within that leg class. (Except maybe tanks where everyone will run dual heat cannons or dual knockers.)


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#34 DominantLegend

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 05:25 PM

Two players equipping 3BR midweights and duking it out with subcomputers and CE shields is not an example of skill, in my opinion. It doesn't show which is the better player or pilot, even if one of them wins every time, because it only shows a very narrow set of circumstances. Verdict Day is a game where if you are an expert in only one or two circumstances, you will get beaten badly most of the time. It's when you restrict people's options for adaptation that you favor that type of specialization that fails to extend to true mastery of the game. 

 

Skill is about mastery of the game in its entirety, and being able to adapt to an opponent quickly and play on their weaknesses. It's not about proving you can win 19 out of 20 matches. It's about proving that on match 20, someone else shows up with a drastically different build you aren't able to adjust to, and beats you handidly. 

 

It's the difference between fighting one person 20 times and winning 15 matches, and having 20 unique players try to exploit you and yet you still win 15. One of them requires a significantly higher amount of skill. It's not the one where the two players use the same tactics and basic build 20 times in a row.



#35 Arbitor Nox Caelum

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 11:25 PM

The builds may wind up similar but not necessarily the in tactics used by each player.

And that's still the point of having leg class divisions. To find who is the best light weight bipedal pilot among light weight bipedal pilots. It's not saying they'rethe best or most skilled in the entire game, just that leg class.

So if a person were to win continually and make it to the top of the L-Bpd division, it would show that they are the most skilled under those circumstances.

Then they could move on to another division say M-Bpd and if they win continually there and make it to the top in that division, they could move on so on and so forth.

And then there'd be the Mixed/Hybrid/whatever division where people compete with one (perhaps 2) of their registered ACs.

It's still testing mastery of the game just individual aspects of it at a time rather than all at once (except in the Mixed league/division maybe).
And yo' Switch went ahead and made the Arena/Tournament Format thread you suggested. Should would move this there or nah?
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