Jump to content


Photo

ACVD 1.07: HCWA LRJ - Messing around with Foreheads and Heat Cannons


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#1 Sash

Sash

    Fucking Tryhard BR Meta-whore.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • AC Type:
    Based 003 3BR God
  • PSNID:
    @JP SashPerennial
  • LIVE Tag:
    Sash X64

Posted 02 October 2015 - 08:18 AM

I have been having too much fun with this.

I'm bad at making Light units, but I think this one is pretty comfortable to use and it provides for a good effect on the battlefield if played right.

 

Frame

hd0410.jpgcr0210.jpgam7320.jpglg8320.jpg

 

Weapons

hu1020.jpghu0550.jpgam7320.jpg

 

Internals

gn6010.jpgfs0420.jpgrc0420.jpgbs0410.jpg

 

Stats

Normal 133

HB 311
 
AP 33434
KE 1918
CE 380
TE 1083
 
Stab 1121
RR 1437
Turning 844
Combat EN 8483
Leftover Load Cap 13
 
Fun.
 
So as with most of my builds, this is actually garbage amazing. I'm also definitely just Lucky 'N Bad.tm

 

I don't really know what to say to explain this. It seems pretty intuitive. I mean, pick your target, get rid of it. Pick another target, get rid of that too.

 

I used to really use a Midweight with Heat Cannon arms, but after finally sitting down and trying to hammer out an LRJ version, I am enamored by the success.


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#2 helamasa

helamasa

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 36 posts
  • LocationFinland
  • AC Type:
    Goat laboratory tech
  • PSNID:
    helamasa

Posted 02 October 2015 - 09:03 AM

i would definetly use fisherman legs, anything below 150 normal boost with shinatsu on lw is slow :S Also high cap gen for proper gb shenigans.


"Helamasa needs his own wikipedia article to understand these inane self-referential memes he's created."


#3 rogan

rogan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,685 posts
  • AC Type:
    Cannon whore

Posted 02 October 2015 - 09:31 AM

I would run a different head since LRJs have plenty of turning and stability and beo just adds some unneeded drain. There are better heads if you need camera function (you don't).


Anything can be solved with the proper application of explosives

#4 DominantLegend

DominantLegend

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 165 posts
  • AC Type:
    AC Red Sun
  • PSNID:
    DominantLegend

Posted 02 October 2015 - 09:43 AM

Wrong head listed. He's using HF-227, not Umegae. 

 

Try BA-214 and Makibashira mdl.1.

 

If you do that and want to change things a step further, you can also swap to Kagaribi Mdl.1 head and the non-retrofit legs, giving you:

 

36603

1874

405

918

 

159 B

318 HB

3000 Recov

 

1146 Stability

869 Turning

1505 RR. 

 

Which are generally superior defenses, more speed, more recoil, more AP, and more turning since you still block everything you were blocking before (except for a few odd pulse guns between 918 and 1083, namely the accuracy spec ones).

 

The only issue is that EN recovery needs to be managed, especially because you take a heavy hit on scan mode recov. But the build already has insane recovery that I doubt that would be an issue. 3000-4000 is more than acceptable for something with as high cap as makibashira, and you're not charging any lasers.



#5 Sash

Sash

    Fucking Tryhard BR Meta-whore.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • AC Type:
    Based 003 3BR God
  • PSNID:
    @JP SashPerennial
  • LIVE Tag:
    Sash X64

Posted 02 October 2015 - 11:26 AM

i would definetly use fisherman legs, anything below 150 normal boost with shinatsu on lw is slow :S Also high cap gen for proper gb shenigans.

I've seen people running fisherman. Guess the load cap is a pretty good deal. I'll have to give it a try next time.

 

I would run a different head since LRJs have plenty of turning and stability and beo just adds some unneeded drain. There are better heads if you need camera function (you don't).

 

I made an oops. I have a 227 on here.

 

Wrong head listed. He's using HF-227, not Umegae. 

 

Yup...

 

 

Try BA-214 and Makibashira mdl.1.

 

That's the old UBT-24/H? I threw a Makibashira mdl.1 (I think that's the Herz, right) on this AC and put a Tokonatsu on there as well, which brought me to holyshitfast speeds.

 

I like me a 214 in some cases but I really hate the kind of sinking feeling I get when I am glide boosting and I see my energy drain pretty quickly and I'm not going anywhere fast...

 

@ New Defenses

 

Which are generally superior defenses, more speed, more recoil, more AP, and more turning since you still block everything you were blocking before (except for a few odd pulse guns between 918 and 1083, namely the accuracy spec ones).

 

I'll have to give it a try. My only worry is that I'm now weak to Niodori.1s, which will fuck me up. Two of those things are gonna out-trade my Heat Cannons, and no amount of AP is gonna keep me in the fight against those. That shit hits for 1065 TE and I'd prefer to block it if I can.

 

The only issue is that EN recovery needs to be managed, especially because you take a heavy hit on scan mode recov. But the build already has insane recovery that I doubt that would be an issue. 3000-4000 is more than acceptable for something with as high cap as makibashira, and you're not charging any lasers.

 

You've got a point there. I suppose I'll give it a shot and see what happens. Problem being that in some cases I will be tossing around my own Pulse Gun rounds, and I'm not the type to break off a target if I see the potential for inflicting more damage.


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#6 Maze

Maze

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 413 posts
  • LocationCalifornia
  • AC Type:
    Howie cqc with Nergal, random crap while mercing.
  • PSNID:
    rottenbreed

Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:25 PM

I never got why these builds never caught on more on the int server, sure you see them but not enough you're more likely to see mids or for some off reason heavies with these arms which is a shame because that gives a pair of awesome weapons a bad rep since mids and heavies don't have the speed to abuse them vs anything other than a tank or maybe a qaud.

 

The build is pretty good personally I'd equip a bigger gen with a toko but the current combo gives you borderline blader or howie build regen which is pretty great

 

other then that you don't need to worry about stun like a lbp would so getting stunned and pegged by a bunch of ce damage isn't a thing and since tanks and heavies will be your prime targets with the weapon arms ce defense wouldn't mean much anyways since lrjs usually take nearly full heavy and tank ce damage and you hardly see the ce missiles that would actually hurt this thing pretty badly in most cases.

 

as for the pulse and shotgun you could go dual pulse with a bigger gen but shotties are actually useful for taking care of lbps so I'm not going to complain about that and light ce damage shouldn't be too much of a worry since in the case of fighting a lbp or lrj you have alright burst damage so pop shotting is a definite choice.

 

the only issue I see is ce missiles in an open area and faster lws but those are somewhat negligible as I see this as a very powerful team build that actually is pretty strong vs the current meta.



#7 SwiiTcHBacK

SwiiTcHBacK

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 242 posts
  • AC Type:
    Light biped

Posted 02 October 2015 - 06:06 PM

I never got why these builds never caught on more on the int server, sure you see them but not enough you're more likely to see mids or for some off reason heavies with these arms which is a shame because that gives a pair of awesome weapons a bad rep since mids and heavies don't have the speed to abuse them vs anything other than a tank or maybe a qaud.

 

Except this build is as slow as a lot of mid and heavy frames that you would see heat cannon weapon arms on without any meaningful defense benefits and it doesn't exceed the RR for most HSMs.

 

I just don't see why forehead would be used here.. Forehead's benefits are it's defenses, but with HC WAs you forfeit most of the benchmarks that make forehead good (mahaon + HMG/small/AS missiles). I tried building it with 1500, 1000, 1000 defenses, 1500 RR, but I can't find a way and I don't think it's possible. 



#8 Maze

Maze

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 413 posts
  • LocationCalifornia
  • AC Type:
    Howie cqc with Nergal, random crap while mercing.
  • PSNID:
    rottenbreed

Posted 02 October 2015 - 06:15 PM

Except this build is as slow as a lot of mid and heavy frames

While that is valid that this ac is slow and definitely needs more speed to make up for its lacking defense the reason why I didn't criticize that first is cause there's a simple fix to that with a better gen and booster combo or maybe the selection of some better suited legs as clearly pointed out by you that the defense benefits of forehead aren't really doing alot here.



#9 rogan

rogan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,685 posts
  • AC Type:
    Cannon whore

Posted 03 October 2015 - 07:47 AM

While that is valid that this ac is slow and definitely needs more speed to make up for its lacking defense the reason why I didn't criticize that first is cause there's a simple fix to that with a better gen and booster combo or maybe the selection of some better suited legs as clearly pointed out by you that the defense benefits of forehead aren't really doing alot here.

I ran one of these builds for a while, but mine didn't run bays, used lighter legs and had toko/sonne for gen boosters. I found that I was overly quick if anything. I see a lot of builds simply running high accel boosters for permaglide so I didn't need 400 HB to catch up. (IIRC mine was round 370) There might be some merit to stacking additional CE defense if he can block out CEMGs, I would have to play around with it to see how difficult it would be to close in with permaglide vs raw speed and if CEMGs are a big enough issue when HBPs pack them.


Anything can be solved with the proper application of explosives

#10 Sash

Sash

    Fucking Tryhard BR Meta-whore.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • AC Type:
    Based 003 3BR God
  • PSNID:
    @JP SashPerennial
  • LIVE Tag:
    Sash X64

Posted 05 October 2015 - 10:46 AM

Alright, sorry it took me so long to get back to this, I haven't had the chance to play.

 

I gave this version a try:

 

hd6030.jpgcr0120.jpgam7320.jpglg8320.jpg

hu0550.jpghu0550.jpgam7320.jpg

gn0320.jpgfs0420.jpgrc0420.jpgbs6110.jpg

 

v Stats v

Spoiler
 

 

Note: 10/A doesn't fit. Neither does a USG.

 

Anyhow, uhm, there were a couple of things about this build that I liked, and a couple of red flags.

 

First off, being fucking fast is fun. I enjoy closing on something in just a moment, and I also like staying behind things with just a boost. However, I do not like Makibashira.1 gen busts.

 

On a personal level, it's just gonna take me some more hours to get the EN management down, but I feel like I've already made the concession of playing a lighter unit and having like 20% of my normal bulkiness. It is a playable AC, it is simply that, when I was using the Makibashira.1 and Toko I started finding myself in situations where I had basically no chance of winning.

 

When I play one of my other builds, the only time that happens is when I eat a face full of howitzer rounds. With this version of the LRJ, the problems arise when there's someone pressuring me, a juicy target, and only 10% of my generator to work with. That EN ain't coming back any time soon, and I'd rather not lose 20k to some plasma missiles.

 

I feel like the main problem is that, unlike in Duels, I don't have a lot of time in Conquest to sit back and get my Generator back online. I am the kind of player who finds himself always needing to be in the fray making a difference in the outcome of the battle. I think this might just be the cost of unfamiliarity, but I had very few issues settling the match in a hasty manner with my regular build, whereas even though I was melting key targets with the Heat Cannon LRJ, I had a really hard time keeping myself ready to finish the fight and take out that proverbial last enemy lightweight.

 

I mean, there is only so much I can do with a bottomed out gen against something with snipers. Granted, they're probably just as fast as me, they've got better range, and I'm already about 500 range away from them. I didn't switch back to Suzu and Shin last night, but I don't remember having the same problems as I did with Makiba.1 and Toko.

 

There's another issue regarding the moments when I need to get rid of a Quad or something. If I use the Pulse Guns to 100-0 something, I lose my whole Gen. With Suzu I get that shit right back (obviously) but with Makiba.1 I basically take myself out of the fight - both for the duration of the kill and the time after when I need to regenerate energy.

 

In situations where it is fine for me to just kick back and wait to pick another target, this would probably be perfectly fine, but I typically need to participate quite heavily in the carnage to ensure victory, and if I get caught out with a dead generator I might get killed, and that means I won't get to put in any more work for the remainder of the fight (obviously).

 

I dunno guys, I really like the speed and handling, but when I deplete that shit it just doesn't come back. Any other ideas? I'mma play around with this some more, but as with every other time I mess with building lightweights, after the initial design kinda flops, I completely draw a blank as to which direction to go in next. Like, Ryugen Mod? Sawarabi? Fisherman? I mean, shit. I like defenses but I can't have it all, I assume.


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#11 rogan

rogan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,685 posts
  • AC Type:
    Cannon whore

Posted 05 October 2015 - 11:14 AM

if you really feel the need to run bay units try provos so that you can easily break CE/TE shields. I don't really see anything wrong with using HCWP on a quad since competitive frames won't block them out anyway. (I'm assuming you use 003 tunes).

 

If you can't get a different gen on it then just use suzu + high accel. Though to be honest I've run Suzu + toko on LRJs and HRJs before. If you want to fit the sonne gen, which probably isn't necessary, use LRLB-111 Ryugen legs and some light pulse guns. Niodori 1 is usually enough in my experience. I don't like your core choice personally since I prefer 125 EN conductivity which is just a matter of feel. Try the CA-309 if weight is an issue. Defenses on a LW are kinda tricky, I usually make sure I block high speeds but not much else. Other people will probably have different opinions.


Anything can be solved with the proper application of explosives

#12 Sash

Sash

    Fucking Tryhard BR Meta-whore.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • AC Type:
    Based 003 3BR God
  • PSNID:
    @JP SashPerennial
  • LIVE Tag:
    Sash X64

Posted 05 October 2015 - 11:27 AM

The bay units are there because the Heat Cannons run out pretty quick in my experience. While you are right that Quads don't buff 003 tunes, I gotta sink a lot of rounds into the damn things. The problem is exacerbated by the stupidly bulky frames, which take almost the entire reserve to put down. That's the reason why I brought Mahaon and USG in the first place - I just wanted something to put those atrocious things down in a timely manner.

 

I don't like Ostara either but it was the only thing that fit the weight and kept my defense spread. I'll probably just wait for more input.


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#13 SwiiTcHBacK

SwiiTcHBacK

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 242 posts
  • AC Type:
    Light biped

Posted 05 October 2015 - 02:13 PM

Pulse and shotgun+pulse is fine for HCWA, they break shields and kill quads/LW/LRJ that the heat cannons have a harder job touching.



#14 Nescient

Nescient

    nope

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,062 posts
  • AC Type:
    Black, RWD
  • PSNID:
    T56
  • LIVE Tag:
    428/393 @7200/3600rpm

Posted 05 October 2015 - 02:59 PM

Alright, sorry it took me so long to get back to this, I haven't had the chance to play.

 

I gave this version a try:

 

hd6030.jpgcr0120.jpgam7320.jpglg8320.jpg

hu0550.jpghu0550.jpgam7320.jpg

gn0320.jpgfs0420.jpgrc0420.jpgbs6110.jpg

 

v Stats v

Spoiler
 

 

Note: 10/A doesn't fit. Neither does a USG.

 

Anyhow, uhm, there were a couple of things about this build that I liked, and a couple of red flags.

 

First off, being fucking fast is fun. I enjoy closing on something in just a moment, and I also like staying behind things with just a boost. However, I do not like Makibashira.1 gen busts.

 

On a personal level, it's just gonna take me some more hours to get the EN management down, but I feel like I've already made the concession of playing a lighter unit and having like 20% of my normal bulkiness. It is a playable AC, it is simply that, when I was using the Makibashira.1 and Toko I started finding myself in situations where I had basically no chance of winning.

 

When I play one of my other builds, the only time that happens is when I eat a face full of howitzer rounds. With this version of the LRJ, the problems arise when there's someone pressuring me, a juicy target, and only 10% of my generator to work with. That EN ain't coming back any time soon, and I'd rather not lose 20k to some plasma missiles.

 

I feel like the main problem is that, unlike in Duels, I don't have a lot of time in Conquest to sit back and get my Generator back online. I am the kind of player who finds himself always needing to be in the fray making a difference in the outcome of the battle. I think this might just be the cost of unfamiliarity, but I had very few issues settling the match in a hasty manner with my regular build, whereas even though I was melting key targets with the Heat Cannon LRJ, I had a really hard time keeping myself ready to finish the fight and take out that proverbial last enemy lightweight.

 

I mean, there is only so much I can do with a bottomed out gen against something with snipers. Granted, they're probably just as fast as me, they've got better range, and I'm already about 500 range away from them. I didn't switch back to Suzu and Shin last night, but I don't remember having the same problems as I did with Makiba.1 and Toko.

 

There's another issue regarding the moments when I need to get rid of a Quad or something. If I use the Pulse Guns to 100-0 something, I lose my whole Gen. With Suzu I get that shit right back (obviously) but with Makiba.1 I basically take myself out of the fight - both for the duration of the kill and the time after when I need to regenerate energy.

 

In situations where it is fine for me to just kick back and wait to pick another target, this would probably be perfectly fine, but I typically need to participate quite heavily in the carnage to ensure victory, and if I get caught out with a dead generator I might get killed, and that means I won't get to put in any more work for the remainder of the fight (obviously).

 

I dunno guys, I really like the speed and handling, but when I deplete that shit it just doesn't come back. Any other ideas? I'mma play around with this some more, but as with every other time I mess with building lightweights, after the initial design kinda flops, I completely draw a blank as to which direction to go in next. Like, Ryugen Mod? Sawarabi? Fisherman? I mean, shit. I like defenses but I can't have it all, I assume.

 

Sit down, shut the fuck up, use vital/shinatsu.

 

...edit...: check out Mo Cyan on youtube...


Close the door, put out the light.


#15 Maze

Maze

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 413 posts
  • LocationCalifornia
  • AC Type:
    Howie cqc with Nergal, random crap while mercing.
  • PSNID:
    rottenbreed

Posted 05 October 2015 - 03:35 PM

You could try Ge-D-G23 with toko even though most players would advise against it, it plays pretty simple for the most part sure your out of scan glide and mobility might take a hit but you don't need to be out of scan for long with this type of build, you wouldn't be able to dual pulse either really but pulse and usg is still viable. other then that I realize if I'm using a build like this, this combo has enough regen to get me out of a bad spot often enough and I can rarely blame it for losses.



#16 Sash

Sash

    Fucking Tryhard BR Meta-whore.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • AC Type:
    Based 003 3BR God
  • PSNID:
    @JP SashPerennial
  • LIVE Tag:
    Sash X64

Posted 12 October 2015 - 08:20 PM

UPDATE:

 

I believe I settled on...

 

hd6030.jpgcr0210.jpgam7320.jpglg2730.jpg

hu1020.jpghu0550.jpgam7320.jpg

gn6010.jpgfs0420.jpgrc0420.jpgbs0120.jpg

 

which runs on a clean...

 

BOOSTER 164
HB 328
 
AP 30970
KE 1650
CE 241
TE 584
 
Stab 1131
RR 1443
Turning 982
Combat EN 9279

Remaining Weight 452

 

Comments...

 

Herz works too. As does Suzu. The thing handles like a dream and hits like a freight train. Thanks to everyone who helped me out. Special thanks to those who got me to start building Lightweights and seriously trying to understand them.

 

If further improvements and criticism can be made, I wish to hear it.


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#17 rogan

rogan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,685 posts
  • AC Type:
    Cannon whore

Posted 12 October 2015 - 08:26 PM

I just want to know how it does against heat machine guns since its HB speed is about the same as a midweight with high power boosters. Additional speed may or may not be necessary or helpful.


Anything can be solved with the proper application of explosives

#18 Sash

Sash

    Fucking Tryhard BR Meta-whore.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • AC Type:
    Based 003 3BR God
  • PSNID:
    @JP SashPerennial
  • LIVE Tag:
    Sash X64

Posted 12 October 2015 - 11:16 PM

Well, I don't mean to be snide, but CEMGs really only matter on the approach. A mid running power boosters cannot keep up with this LRJ's circle-strafe. At least in my (brief) experience, heavies and mids running power boosters bottomed out their generators trying to re-acquire me in their lock box once I broke and got on their flank. With Suzumushi, it is easy to remain behind such opponents.

 

PMGs and Pulse Guns, though, are kinda worrying. PMGs cannot harass to the same ranges that CEMGs can, but they're a lot more dangerous inside the sweet spot. Pulse Guns are pretty terrifying now, actually, but I am sorta fast enough to backpedal most permagliding mids trying to Pulse me. If I am in a tough spot, I can just DPS the PMGs.

 

I am still fiddling with the boosters on here, but this current combination allows me to best take advantage of the heavy- and quad-saturated metagame I find myself in.

 

It isn't an all-around anti-meta god, but the build has some merit to it and I am gonna keep using it. It just sucks when someone negates my normally huge speed advantage. Perhaps it is not such a big deal though - I am used to playing something pretty slow, so the new-found mobility (especially the humongous jump) has been really effective in messing up unsuspecting enemy lightweights and mids.


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#19 rogan

rogan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,685 posts
  • AC Type:
    Cannon whore

Posted 13 October 2015 - 06:35 AM

A: Well, I don't mean to be snide, but CEMGs really only matter on the approach.

 

B:  If I am in a tough spot, I can just DPS the PMGs.

A: Thats exactly what I mean. How well does it approach under fire from CEMGs as those don't consume EN and allow the user to move around unhindered.

 

B: No, you can't. Unless you have a huge AP lead already, you have 584 TE: PMGs hit for effective damage. If you don't believe me go try and out DPS one of your fave using UNACs. The build needs to focus on flanking because lights don't win fire trades.


Anything can be solved with the proper application of explosives

#20 Sash

Sash

    Fucking Tryhard BR Meta-whore.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • AC Type:
    Based 003 3BR God
  • PSNID:
    @JP SashPerennial
  • LIVE Tag:
    Sash X64

Posted 13 October 2015 - 07:14 AM

Just one CEMG is probably gonna let the average player get in 6k's worth of damage on the approach - that's only an estimate. That shit ain't gonna bounce off my chest. I'll need more experience fighting CEMGs to make a better call on that.

 

As for the Fave, god no, that thing rips me in half. That's like 8k gone each second. Against a player using Arachide though, it is less of an issue. When players see Heat Cannon rounds coming at them, I believe their first instinct is to mash out evasive boosts. I haven't noticed it much, but again, I'll need to use the build more.

 

There was one guy who used CEMG and PMG, and I just decided not to mess with him from the front.


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq