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#21 DominantLegend

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 10:17 AM

Why a KE shield breaker:

 

In a duel it's not hard for someone else to bait and survive 10 sawa shots, especially if you're not really experienced. If all you have after that are sniper rifles, then the enemy can pop out a KE shield and win handidly.

 

There's also the fact that this AC has such low AP that it needs to be aggressive and drop the enemy's AP early on to get a lead. If the enemy is running 2 shields and high AP, it's easy to waste all of your sawa shots trying to take the shields down, leaving you with just a sniper, again.

 

---

 

Why a KE shield:

 

The KE shield shuts down counter sniping and rifle/HSM stunlock, two common weapon sets that can stop something like this easily. X00 and SRB aren't accurate enough to trade sniper shots with subcomp'd SRA-133s or Kumoriyo Mdl.1 at 250-300+m, espcially with only 120 firing stability. And once X00 is purged, you're in the range to be stunlocked by a lot of weapons.

 

A CQ version of this build may not need the shield play, but I'm of the opinion that if your build avoids being shut down because other people aren't paying attention to you, eventually people are going to start specifically targeting you and lock you out at the end of a team match and force you to change or find another team to fight. Duels are much more my experience than CQ, so take that with a grain of salt. 

 

---

 

Also, Sash and I are talking about 2 slightly different builds. He's talking about a dual arm rusher (I think) with VTFs or EN amps, which is in and of itself a very good build, but a lot heavier and drainier than what I was suggesting. Probably using BA-309

 

I'm talking about a single-arm (or no shoulder) rusher that is quite a bit faster, that only pops out of scan mode to fire the guns. Probably Niodori Mdl.1/Niodori Mdl.1/Shotgun/Howitzer on 177 no-shoulder arms, Tokonatsu, and the highest output gen that gives you rushing cap. Basically, trade VTF spam for being able to stay out of melee range and about ~50 more glide boost speed.



#22 Sash

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 04:27 PM

Mmm, the place for the Sawa LW is in CQ I think. In duel you have to worry about not being able to hit your one target as opposed to potentially four, one or more of which are probably weak to the Sawas.

 

I guess this comes down to what the build is gonna be used for. If duels, your suggestions are better than mine. If CQ, I'd personally want the firepower so as to make as large an effect on the battle as possible.

 

 

 

- - - 

 

I vouch for the VTF LW for days. You grossly out-trade things and your burst is nuts, and since you're a light, you can get in and get out before anyone knows what hit them. It's dastardly for sure.

 

 
Speaking of comparing builds, are you on JP, Dom? I might have the slightest desire to duel you and talk about some of these topics if you're up for it.

you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#23 Nova313

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 06:35 PM

Hey guys, I haven't read your latest posts yet but I wanted to let Nescient know that I have to bail on him tonight.  The girlfriend called and wants some cuddle time.  Of course I have to oblige.  If you see this Nescient, I'll be on tomorrow night same time...10pm.  Thanks bro.



#24 Nescient

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 12:53 PM

i saw nothing.


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#25 DominantLegend

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 02:39 PM

I'm on JP every now and then, I used to be on there more. Send me a friend request.



#26 Nescient

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 07:57 PM

I vouch for the VTF LW for days. You grossly out-trade things and your burst is nuts, and since you're a light, you can get in and get out before anyone knows what hit them. It's dastardly for sure.

 

It was a pretty hairy setup in ACV. IME the pulse guns do the majority of CQC work, VTFs don't add much if anything to a pulse gun run; launching them on the way in works if you can get a clean shot off without wasting precious energy gliding in combat mode (typically not the case)... VTFs don't lock fast enough with the 23 reticule FCS, yasakani probably gets by but its a single missile at best before you're back to wasting energy better spent on the PGs. The decrease in reticule hurts without 900+ turning performance and even then it can lead to problems chaining hits during CQC. The margin of error for flanking is noticeably more forgiving the wider your cone of fire is in contrast to your targets, 19 reticule doesn't offer much advantage over glance, none at all if your in glide. All the sawaspeds will wet themselves with joy stunning you into the ground, E28/HSM is enough to kill this build on its own. 

 

The build was popularized by good players in a time when shotguns worked, most maps were herzable, and above all else, UVFs were overpowered. Back then it made a lot of sense because UVF17 (sazanami)  stunned the popular bipedal designs and functioned on its own at mid-range.  

 

In a 4v4 it will pull its weight as long as the map has some scrap of cover to play with and the opposing team provides at least one dumbass in a tank. If its forced to rely on pulse guns herz doesn't offer enough regen to have much long term impact, on most maps.


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#27 SwiiTcHBacK

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 11:31 AM

I skimmed the thread so my apologies if I say something already covered.

 

My kinda territory. If you still want this sort of burst Lightweight but with a bit of range on the weapons I ran a build focused around sawas/howitzers/ammo boxes that worked well.. Dual 4 shot is a duel build just to be obnoxious and destroy most of people's health in one go. 4shot+12 shot is a bit easier on the EN allowing a few more shots at it. Dual 12 shot is extremely EN efficient and seems to work better in CQ. 

 

The Rapid fire tuned suggestion is perfect for the sawas when paired with a lightweight, add on glance to make your life a tonne easier getting the lock down and it is borderline broken. If you aren't comfortable with the howitzers pair them with KE/CE weapons of your choosing, but ones that you can comfortably break TE shields with is one of the best bets. In duels you might be able to run the 8 shot snipers, for CQ they're just way too slow to be worth it. Shotguns are ok, but don't pair well with glance and are tougher to break TE shields with.

 

As a LW player, generally the CE weapons aren't the ones you should be worried about, 3BR can hurt, but generally it's the lasers/pulses that are the biggest threat to your life and hardest to deal with, particularly if you're keeping a CIWS on. So on that note I'd run a TE shield more often than CE shield. Generally I think shields work best on ACs with missiles/melee as you can still be a threat with them when the shields out. 4 shot is a big threat to non heavies/tanks, but you only have 4 shots (obviously).. The combination of CE shield and CIWS does allow some large aggression against some common loadouts in CQ.

 

VTF LW? It works great.. Pulse guns only work on people weak to TE which does deal with rabis and a lot of quads.. But the VTFs do add a nice chunk to quads and on occassion to a rabi.. Where it shines is in dealing with heavies/mids/tanks quicker/more reliably if you don't have a melee on hand. 



#28 Nova313

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 06:44 PM

Ok guys, my apologies for the absence.  My girlfriend has been coming over a lot lately so of course all time goes to her.  Oh, and a shout out to Nescient for the missle practice a few days ago.

 

@Sash:  I have tried the dual PG/ SG build and I agree it is a ton of fun!  However, I plan on coming up with another build that has higher turning that Nowicki...probably Snowden or something.  And like SwiitTcHBack said above, I don't particularly care for the Glance/ SG combo.  As far as what i want to use the AC for...I'd actually like for it to be good at both 1v1 and CQ.  I think the build you guys helped me with accomplishes that.

 

@Dominant Legend:  Got it.  So any advice on a VTF?  I decided to go with a KE shield.  It kinda just felt right.      

 

@SwiiTcHBacK:  I tried the dual Sawa and while it was hella fun I don't know how competitive it would be.  My generator tends to tap out fairly early...lol.  I do agree that TE weapons seem to be a pain right now.  Best bet so far has been to remain out of range.                                                     



#29 DominantLegend

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 08:55 PM

VTFs need to be fired at enemy flanks. They work best to cover one side when popping out on the other side. Example: Fire a the enemy's left, they go right and forward to avoid it, you move left (their right) and forward and hit them. HSM works similarly, but doesn't circle around as well and is too weak to have as much as a "Scare" factor. 

 

In either  case, popshotting with VTFs invites issues where the opponent can guide the missiles into a nearby wall and cause you to damage yourself if your timing is off, especially on CQC popshotting situations. You can also have VTFs blow up in your face from your own weapons or from the enemy, especially if they're using autocannons. This is mostly why they work well for flanking instead.

 

You can circle around and spam 2-6 VTFs at once, which is more of a CQC anti-tank/heavy strategy. 

 

I theorize that you could conceivably use Jasper to some effect, since they cause stun and weigh considerably less than Sazanami, but they're very inaccurate (wouldn't matter if you're CQC firing them) and have a weird trajectory. They're sort of like a lighter, slower, higher damage HSM. But there are good reasons why most people won't use Jasper.



#30 Nescient

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:16 PM

@switch whats a rabi?

 

@legs if ur running vanilla usg11s/napa snowdon is fine, it won't handle a missile though. I prefer L2LA-142 or theodora. If u keep drain out of the scan mode equation (HF227, KE core, that junk recon gimmick i throw around when I'm bored, etc) herz/makibashira mdl.1 will be your best friend. Defenses are modest, but either is good for 1800+KE/1000+CE ~30K AP and 1K RR. Being able to tank or at least mitigate HSM and CMGs is often enough to turn bad match ups in your favor without much effort.

 

I use HSM over VTF because INT is crawling with low RR bipeds. HSM functions well single slot, where VTFs lose DPS. Carrying capacity is tight enough that VTF+kocho requires a stripped down frame or compromised arm weapons... Melee covers the same function with 1 or 2 arm weapons and less than 300 precious capacity points. HSMs limited coverage is offset by them hitting things somewhat reliably. I've used habas (the 1496/1412 HSM) for awhile with USG11s on a melee build, hits hard when the missiles are effective. 212 (the darker, finnier HSM formerly known as pueraria) adds more to the build, the threat of stun-lock is real to a lot of bipeds, most importantly there is less need to mix a clumsy shotgun in with teh parasugans. A lot of builds (defective quads, LRJ scum, freakishly stable HBPs and tanks...) sit in the 14xx RR range, if they're close to 1500 USG11 (sga204??) is an unreliable impact source. 


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#31 Sash

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:31 PM

Nitpick man here again.

 

VTFs are C@$#. And by that I mean they suck really bad if your opponent knows what you're doing, but they reward a mindlessly aggressive playstyle and punish some plays harder than most other weapons in the game. Some folks think they're the only good shoulder unit, some folks think they're overused and garbage, but to others they're brutal tools for shoving the strongest burst into an enemy's face.

 

I guess that from experience it feels like one would just throw out VTFs whenever they get the chance, but the most rewarding way to use them frequently requires a bit of nuance.

 

Dom gave a great synopsis, but I guess I'mma just say something different.

 

A player's first reaction to VTFs is either "Oh lol we dodge those" or "Oh godfuggindamnit fuggin VTF feggits I hope you eat do food and die."

 

Or maybe something different. The bottom line is, OK, VTFs do a ton of damage if they connect. This means that careful players will have to react accordingly to evade your VTFs, and reckless players will take a lot of damage. I think there's a couple of fights I can find that illustrate good VTF tactics, but it is true that they can be used very mindlessly. 45 VTFs is more than enough to kill almost any AC, so if you don't have a way to evade them you can die outright to VTFs.

 

The tactic Dom mentioned works well; GB or Boost Drive around a target's flank and let them have some VTFs. VTFs must be dodged by evading away from them basically at the last moment, and to dodge an entire chain you need powerful boosters or a fast AC. If an AC is stationary (or at least momentarily stationary, or otherwise stuck in a position of moving "not backwards") then VTFs will almost always hit for full damage and are very frustrating to deal with. What I mean by that is, you can catch people with VTFs at the zenith of their jump arcs, when they land, when they GB in on you, or when you GB in on them. Again though, they do jack shit if your opponent can react to them - they're easily the simplest competitive missile to dodge.

 

VTFs also lock fast on nearly any FCS, and are extremely responsive on something like a Yasakani or Otkryt. In a pinch, they can be used to mitigate unfavorable CQB trades to great effect.

 

Jasper is where I have to adamantly say no, though. Sazanami mdl.2 is resoundingly the best VTF to use. Jasper are ok maybe if you're trying to style on someone - who loses to Jasper?

 

@Nescient

 

Pueraria are stunrape, it is known. Pureria and a Jesup on some nice arms are more than sufficient to tear through the lower-RR garbage INT HBPs without much effort. Dunno what exactly you guys have on your server but if it doesn't pack high KE and lacks the RR, it had better prepare to bite the pillow. To quote my idol some faggot Destiny, "[HSM and Rifle] [are] a lot like rape. The [Pueraria] are like the hand that reaches around the waist, and the [Jesup (and hopefully your BR too)] are you inserting yourself into his body OK? So when he tries to get away, when he tries to wiggle away, your [Pueraria] are there (from the back) to hold him in place... And now you are a convicted felon, congratulations."


you fucking tryhard

 Rix-Today at 9:17 PM

I banned someone because they posted porn in a porn topic

 

AvalonFive-Today at 9:25 PM
I like being both top and bottom so the middle sounds nice
 
Kappa

 


#32 Nescient

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:48 PM

VTFs need to be fired at enemy flanks. They work best to cover one side when popping out on the other side. Example: Fire a the enemy's left, they go right and forward to avoid it, you move left (their right) and forward and hit them. HSM works similarly, but doesn't circle around as well and is too weak to have as much as a "Scare" factor. 

 

In either  case, popshotting with VTFs invites issues where the opponent can guide the missiles into a nearby wall and cause you to damage yourself if your timing is off, especially on CQC popshotting situations. You can also have VTFs blow up in your face from your own weapons or from the enemy, especially if they're using autocannons. This is mostly why they work well for flanking instead.

 

You can circle around and spam 2-6 VTFs at once, which is more of a CQC anti-tank/heavy strategy. 

 

I theorize that you could conceivably use Jasper to some effect, since they cause stun and weigh considerably less than Sazanami, but they're very inaccurate (wouldn't matter if you're CQC firing them) and have a weird trajectory. They're sort of like a lighter, slower, higher damage HSM. But there are good reasons why most people won't use Jasper.

 

VTFs early detonation vs back-peddling targets makes it necessary to flank (the full moon-wizard definition of flank, meaning your opponent loses track of you long enough to get caught moving not away.... (._.)) or stagger anyone that understands this. Carrying a 1.2K SU is counterintuitive if the one thing that must be done to undo the thing also happens to be the predominant counter to your hypothetical CQC strategy. You could drop a shotgun for an oxeye but then ur just a RGLEBELRGBELGBBRGE. Parasugan is better off on its own, kumos or a pile are better heavy medicine... obviously nothing trolls like HSM.  


"not backwards"... It seems we have stumbled on a new etymologicology.

 

back in my day, if u wanted to dodge VTFs u had to move heaven and fucking earth. And u moved the earth because u weren't going to dodge it for fun, or anything, so might as well prep ur own grave and then they space in heaven yaddayaddafartfartfart.

 

sash, tell cheng... add it to the terms...


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#33 DominantLegend

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 10:15 PM

I don't think I've ever seen Japser used seriously, but it does cause armor break and stun where sazanami won't (and weighs a lot less), without being ineffective against mid-weights like HSM is. That might leave some a niche somewhere. 



#34 Nescient

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 10:16 PM

....le sigh... I've used jasper.. IIRC it has a very missile-like flight...

 

it works like any other VTF, tracking is so bad that its got an HSM-like blindspot in CQC and it doesn't really turn accurately aside from a narrow winder shortly after that stunning blind-spot.... Unless u dead ass it from close range this missile will miss with enthusiasm. I'm confident I could do better hit rate wise with rockets or bombs. It works well vs stationary targets carefully placed on the ground. To be fair I like it vs tanks, its got enough VTF in it to fucking... hit one out of a stationary turn... In that scenario it has enough impact to armor break most light tanks. Jellyfish are vastly superioru for the weight. Jasper is a passable choice if you find FA grenades too reliable. The one time I threw it on a mid I watched a bunch of vaguely missile-esque (wildly above par) projectile animations scatter around the map, much like ACV pueraria used to, noted the inclination to hit tanks, switched to flash rockets and was amazed at how OP flash rockets are... 


Pueraria are stunrape, it is known. Pureria and a Jesup on some nice arms are more than sufficient to tear through the lower-RR garbage INT HBPs without much effort. Dunno what exactly you guys have on your server but if it doesn't pack high KE and lacks the RR, it had better prepare to bite the pillow. To quote my idol some faggot Destiny, "[HSM and Rifle] [are] a lot like rape. The [Pueraria] are like the hand that reaches around the waist, and the [Jesup (and hopefully your BR too)] are you inserting yourself into his body OK? So when he tries to get away, when he tries to wiggle away, your [Pueraria] are there (from the back) to hold him in place... And now you are a convicted felon, congratulations."


Close the door, put out the light.





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