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Top Notch UNAC - Revamp


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#1 rogan

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 05:11 AM


					
					
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#2 rogan

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 11:04 AM

Original Thread and author her: http://armoredcorele...notch-unac-wip/

 

​To paraphrase:

 

the objective of the original author was to create a UNAC ally, which when engaged in a 2v2 scenario would allow him to win barring OHKOs from UWs, kicks, Piles, etc even if he was taken out. As the original author was confident in his ability to cripple at least one of the opponents before he was defeated, this would allow the UNAC to defeat the two opposing builds because it had an AP lead over at least one. Keep in mind that this UNAC was not meant to be able to win a 2v1 off the bat.

 

​There were also additional considerations which I will attempt to relist here:

- must use all three operational patterns

​- must use all 50,000 points

​- must be able to win under the above conditions

​- speed is preferred over defense and AP

​- must have a beautiful paint scheme

 

​So, to put it plainly: This is NOT possible. Not that it can't happen on occasion, but a player should always defeat a UNAC due to the inherent flaws in the system. However, this did get my thinking: "How close to this can I get?"

 

​The first thing I have to do is alter the conditions for success slightly. I am choosing to interpret the original conditions as: The UNAC must be an effective member of a team where the opposing enemy build type is irrelevant to performance, additionally the ally which the UNAC is paired with is additionally irrelevant to performance.

 

​bluntly, I am not going to specialize this UNAC. Generally I build something with a very specific role in mind and program it to be effective within that given role 1st and foremost. So a quad for example: Stay at mid range and provide stagger support by focus firing. A tank would be: Charge and attack the fattest opposing target which is closest too you. This UNAC will have two targeting chips, target AC and Focus fire. That's it.

 

​Now for the specific conditions:

- must use all three operational patterns

I am not entering this project with the intent of using all three operational trees. If I can I will do it with just one, but if necessary I will use as many as needed.

 

​- must use all 50,000 points

No. This is just stupid. I'm not going to slow the UNAC down by making it do too much and adding in useless chips. Additionally the UNAC's ally is supposed to be irrelevant. This means it will not always be fighting alongside me. I will attempt to control this UNAC as an operator. If a UNAC has too many points used it will be slow to respond to operator commands.

 

​- must be able to win under the above conditions

Well, must destroy opposing AC. I have not figured out how to get UNACs to beat humans who data hack or grab subtargets and clock-run without incurring a huge operational cost, like 70K. Unless I operate, which is boring.

 

​- speed is preferred over defense and AP

Ok, I like this one. This means I won't be building a lazy meta quad. It should make things more interesting.

 

​- must have a beautiful paint scheme

​Err... help? *Paints AC black*

 

​This is what the UNAC looks like so far:

 

​INVADER ver 1.0

*little bit of a Dark Souls bleed over here, pay it no mind*

​Weapons (right arm/left arm + Shoulders + right bay/left bay)

K29/Au-B-A04 + KMB-118H + NA/Au-F-K14

 

​Frame:

F17/Matsukaze mdl 3/Kocho/L2MA-131

 

​Internals:

​E28/Suzu/BA-214/Asatori mdl 1.

 

​Operational Tree:

 

Spoiler

 

 

​Analysis:

The weapon set is fairly straight forward, K29 + HSM is very tried and true and effectively kills anything with less than 1870 KE. The rifle is added to hit builds which are above the 1870 KE thresh hold. However, this leaves the build very weak to two common AC types: KE HBPs and KE tanks. Both of which will simply out DPS the build. So I have added in a Heat Howie very specifically for those two AC types with a second operational patter for anything with more than 1700 TE. Additionally the second operation patter very specifically has the build flanking a target while the first is gear toward rushing with point and shoot. Given the impact force of the HSM and K29 the UNAC has passible accuracy with the HEAT Howie, although its far from excellent.

 

​The frame is a simple Cookie Cutter mid. Which unfortunately gets it outright killed by CE weapons such as CEMGs and Mathuras. The internals simply grant the UNAC a strong range performance, 370 if my math is correct, which lets it spam HSM and Sawa rounds. The high accel is chosen to keep EN high enough to permacharge the Sawa. I seem to have removed the high power boosters I thought I had earlier. Still, it can HB and charge the sawa at the same time.

 

​Known Weakness:

- Mathuras: it dies.

​- CEMGs: see above

- Heavy Quads: Fatter quads can hold up under K29 + HSM + rifle fire long enough to win out the damage race via superior AP.

​- HEAT Howie is not overly reliable.

​- this exact same set up works drastically better on a lazy meta quad

 

​Considered Changes: Single Shoulder CE arms and A88 head in order to hit Mathura CE defense numbers, as this will cut into HSM performance I am also considering changing them to MM which will increase performance against tanks and HBPs. (See last weakness)

 

​I would be interested to hear from people who have encountered this in CQ. I'm generally running 2-3 of them on a squad at the moment, sometimes just one alongside other UNACs. Thoughts?

​EDIT: I tried to make some edits to the original posted and completely FUBAR'd it when I clicked something. I have no idea what went wrong, so everything is in a second post atm.


Anything can be solved with the proper application of explosives

#3 Nescient

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Posted 07 November 2016 - 06:57 AM

What's the significance of 1700 thermal? Just to prioritize mids and quads?

A swarm of them could obviously pose some threat to int scrubs, that said I don't see why you chose such a wimpy frame.

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#4 rogan

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 10:06 AM

What's the significance of 1700 thermal? Just to prioritize mids and quads?

A swarm of them could obviously pose some threat to int scrubs, that said I don't see why you chose such a wimpy frame.

The 1700 TE defense rating is weird. During testing I noticed that if I see the TE value for operational change too low, say to around 1500, the UNAC would constantly toggle between the 1st and second operations when fighting heavier quads and some high TE mids thanks to the stagger defense drop from the Sawa. Which ultimately meant it never fired its left arm weapon. I pushed the TE defense value for engaging the second operation simply to avoid this. In hindsight, this could easily be set for 2000TE and avoid the issue all together.

​The frame was picked mostly because it allows for dual shoulders while keeping KE above 1870 and TE above 1095. I would certainly be open to alternate frames so long as they support the weapon set, or a better weapon set.

​I need to update this post because I changed this build somewhat.


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#5 rogan

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 08:04 AM

Updated: 11/29/2016

​Frame and Weapons Update:

INVADER ver 2.0

​Weapons (right arm/left arm + Shoulders + right bay/left bay)

K29/Aragane mdl 1. + KMB-118H + NA/NA

 

​Frame:

F17/Matsukaze mdl 3/Kocho/L2MA-131

 

​Internals:

​E28/Suzu/BA-214/Asatori mdl 1.

​A very simple Change made the UNAC more effective. I should have known.

​The Aragane mdl 1 has surprised me with its effectiveness. Most of the builds which I have encountered has CE which at the most is around 2100. The Aragane hits above that and turns heavy units which only block 3BRs into scrap. That weapon by itself has improved performance against tanks and HBPs greatly. However, I'm not yet convinced its a better choice than a strekoza. The Aragane has two slight, virtually niche, advantages: first off it has more ammo, yippee. Its not like a strek bot runs out of ammo before it kills something in the first place. The second advantage is its fire rate. This I did notice, while the UNAC take longer to achieve a red lock it does fire more rounds on a target, against heavier units this makes a difference since those rounds do actually hit. Against a lighter unit, the Aragane is of limited use unless an ally has subcomputers. However, I'm betting on the K29 and HSM to defeat light units on their own. Interestingly, when the K29 causes a defense drop the BR will hit the CC quad frame for effective damage.

​There are some operational tree changes which I'll go over:

​First off I only need one chip for the left arm, the BR used does hit anything past 200 meters anyway so the first rifle chip is all that's needed. Secondly the movement chips have been replaced with flank right then left chips instead of the zigzag versions. Finally, the boost drive chip in the special movement category has been removed. (the evasive action one remains)

​The purpose behind these chip changes was to cut cost, allowing for very quick responses to operator input, and potentially allowing for multiple operational trees. Although those trees have not been programmed yet.

​Ultimately, is this weapon set up more effective than say: K29 + VTFs + Strek. (Which is brutal) I'm not sure, it does reach out much further which makes kiting the UNAC more difficult and takes full advantage of the 350 lock range. However, my weapons of choice leave the UNAC very vulnerable to two things: Fortress Quads can easily pack defenses capable of shrugging off two of three weapons (they can eat enough sawa rounds that it doesn't matter) and secondly, Mathuras and CEMGs completely floor the build. (Maggie) I may end up needing to try collapsing the range and using the above weapon set on a different FCS in the future.

 

 


Anything can be solved with the proper application of explosives

#6 Nescient

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 08:52 AM

The 1700 TE defense rating is weird. During testing I noticed that if I see the TE value for operational change too low, say to around 1500, the UNAC would constantly toggle between the 1st and second operations when fighting heavier quads and some high TE mids thanks to the stagger defense drop from the Sawa. Which ultimately meant it never fired its left arm weapon. I pushed the TE defense value for engaging the second operation simply to avoid this. In hindsight, this could easily be set for 2000TE and avoid the issue all together.

​The frame was picked mostly because it allows for dual shoulders while keeping KE above 1870 and TE above 1095. I would certainly be open to alternate frames so long as they support the weapon set, or a better weapon set.

​I need to update this post because I changed this build somewhat.

 

lol gg fromsoft... IME one of the better unibuild squads is mid-heavy (ortigara) quad with spam drop X00 and plink hangers. Its only weakness is multiple tanks. Its the only setup ive been stone walled by in 3+1 matches... Theres no easy way around it on the average map.


Close the door, put out the light.


#7 rogan

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 04:47 AM

the quad in question runs: X00/sheild + VTFs + K29/Gat right? I built a few of those but its not fun to run 2 or 3 of them in the same squad. About the only good way around those with another 1+3 squad are plasma or tanks.


Speaking of tanks: those really stonewall this build. No matter how i set it up the tank can simply run it over and move on. Even with effective damage the tank simply has too much AP and DPS to trade with, I might have to make it attempt to play keep away and use range to beat the tank. Similar to a quad.

1 + 3 squads are going to have issues with tanks in general iffs. To win you can either bring more tanks, UW them to death (lame), or use some very specific anti tank weapons and set ups. Even then your four man ganks need to be on point because tanks have so much AP and firepower.

Or just play on a city map or anything with a tower. We all know how that ends.
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#8 Nescient

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 07:30 AM

iirc it was X00/shield HSM rifle/cmg... Limited tuning in the x00, they'd charge it fully then dump the subsequent shots. +1 is a long ass range sniper that focuses on TE shield removal and damage avoidance. Relatively even defenses with ~1200 te.

 

The reason I struggled with them is that they counter every signs unac. Venerable signs tank sponges the X00's but they dump them so fast into effective rifle/hsm dps that the tanks don't have time to do much. A few hundred KE defense and better/tuned offense would go a long way. Bishop took me for like 10-0... I think i might've bulldozed all or most of the quads with the godriped but sacrificed too much coverage to tackle his slightly faster light mid weight. 

 

Other than that I'm guessing they had spare programming dedicated to evasion.

 

IME 1+3 vs tanks is easier than most if you can stretch a minute or two out of the bots. And use op melee...

 

whats a city map?


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