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#1 Temjin

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 11:08 PM

My ac based on a model kit, I like the frame looks and try to make the best out of it.  My main complain are the legges turn rate and low ap. other than that, it's really fast and fun to control.  I have two rifles to fight faster ac, a back cannon in case I run into a heavy one. 

 

Ideally I like to use the XAM-SOBRERO arms, but the firing accuracy was so bad I had to drop it. I don't know those stablizers do anything, I try to add more stability to the leggs.

 

open to suggestions on other body parts, better weapon choices, how to increase performance and such.

 

 

 

 

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#2 Nescient

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 08:03 AM

interesting. Does the stability tuning block rifle/missile spam or something? lahire/judith/linstant and PA/vertical thrust tuning might be the better defensive option, if your dead set on dual rifle+GL. Dual sapla or sapla and a missile is better than a stand alone travers without an assault armor OB.


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#3 rogan

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 05:03 AM

Oh boy, a feather weight build. I am not surprised that you are having issues with 2 opponents and shotguns. I will do a full write up later but since i'm on my phone atm i'll try to be brief:

you do not have the stability stat needed to use that grenade launcher. You will need 1850ish to fire it accurately iirc, others you stun yourself

definitely use stronger main boosters, as it stand a heavy mid is faster that you are if they run lahire or virtue mains. Aaliyah is probably best here.

Consider stacking PA, it will be about the only defense buffer you get. Rifle and machine gun fire will be hellish for this thing to fight. Use lahire or judith gen in this case.

Your arms don't really work well with standard rifles. They are fantastic at CQC but not so much at ranged combat. I would say judith are your best bet but i need to build this and look at the stats more closely to be certain.
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#4 Temjin

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 05:23 PM

Thanks guys, a lot of ideas for me to play with. For heavy weapon, Dual sapla or single one is better choice may be, and what are some other alternatives?  I'm not fan of missions, always felt that people can dodge them easily.  Will do some tuning on the PA, but I don't want to lose too much maneuverability. 

 

The stability tuning shorten the freeze time when I got shot, especially by shot gun.  I'm not too worry about rifle and machine gun attacks, but those high speed laser weapons give me more problems. 

 

Ok, will try out those suggested thrusters, and vertial thruster tuning. I like the judith arms quite a bit, will also consider replace it. 



#5 Nescient

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 12:39 PM

Dual sapla can stun-lock just about anything for 3+ hits, dealing full grenade cannon damage at a fraction of the classes average weight, along with best in class DPS and a good balance of hit rate stats, which most ballistic back weapons lack. Since they strip PA effectively, two of them gives you burst damage to leverage over heavier builds scrapping for AP lead, and a hammer to smash under equipped meta range setups. Its a bit of a wildcard vs lightweights but very good at shutting down arrogant bladers. 

 

Reload rate allows it to perform dual roles, any other GL needs a kamal, aa etc. to even register as a threat equal to a single sapla. If you land a clean hit from relatively close to and above your target, full stun guarantees a solid aoe hit on the second shot. The diamond in the rough of its stats is rifle like melee ability which drastically out performs slight muzzle/precision advantages on the heavier cannons. A lighter weapon is inherently better for CQC duty. Repurposing 1000 weight to gen/booster equates to a heightened accuracy potential. Removing it means ur 1000s fats faster. Sapla and the burst/dps archetype play into this as much as they do raw offense, being able to burn through its magazine and attain "value" faster than other weapons snowballs into a weight/mobility advantage mid-late game for remaining weapons. Its got a great chance of rolling "HAH, AP LEAD!" from the most dire circumstance, and AP lead is everything.

 

 

 

The obvious issue is that grenades are in general difficult to use at best, and sapla only has 6 of them. The "thing" is grenades aren't reliable, they are at there best as a compliment to a main weapon. IIRC sapla also takes a hidden stat trophy for nearly instant weapon switching- if you time the different models some take longer than others to activate. This equates to a noticeable lock rate advantage.

 

IMO sapla is not fully optimized as a +1 to Kamal, which I think does better with Travers. However, both (sapla+kamal) are high enough tier weapons to be pretty fool proof on there own and the PA breaker+kill gun synergy is there. If you're looking for a good place to start this would be my recommendation depending on your style preferences.

 

 

honorable mention:

the 10 shot plasma cannon is miles behind kamal. It has a little more range as a 1 shot PA breaker. Kamal makes up for this by not screwing your energy regen at every turn and having more than ten ammos, but requires near point blank hits to do significant damage to anything as a burst damage source. 

Consequently, the positioning you end up in to stylistically bubble burst into grenade launch combo as the gods intended, is too close to rain those sweet follow up shots of hateful reliability that make sapla S tier. 

 

That doesnt matter, the cumulative PA attenuation kamal puts down range is more than enough to sleeper hold weak PA drives, without sapla assistance. It just takes a few more seconds to delete there generator while the 10 shot plasma, just, gloriously 1 shots anything PA related that gets in its way. Kamal is probably in the middle of 1.4 regulation top five meta weapons- you must use it if only to better understand what it takes to get around.

 

I like the combo (sapla+10 shot plasma) for a lot of reasons ranging from dumb (visual symmetry through asymmetry...) to somewhat based (even if it misses entirely.

 

 

 

 

and you are about to get a monumental lesson in missing entirely if you're stepping into FA pvp.

 

 

 

it leaves that white static field (ECM) wherever it lands (pretty sure it disrupts radar once fired, making it a 900 muzzle velocity radar blocking rocket cannon) that fuzzes most radars for a few seconds. A few seconds is enough time to spam/drop like 3 saplas. It shoots faster than the ECM dissipates. Unfortunately this strength belies that its about as strategy/cover dependent as the grenade its supposed to set up. You basically need to be on the ground to force a ground fight, barring a full tier mobility advantage (mid weight vs heavy biped, lightweight vs mid). 

 

In a lot of experience with both (maby a few games with plasmapla zero cell coverage combo ;D kamal and me go back a ways..) kamal only gets better as connections get worse, plasma needs some semblance of stability to land and fully exploit. This is the story of most weapons in the garage, but plasmas weather tricks and this models damage and disrespect for PA puts it really really close to within the realm of viable in a number of cases. With a little skill its definitely a (map dependent) viable solution to heavier builds, specifically paired with sapla. Both weapons share the brand of not enough ammo to even do with. What this actually means is they're both sleeper hybrid weapons with crazy hidden stats and magic find and- FAs low ammo "high performance" category belongs to weapons that do things normally requiring two weapons, or in plasmas case things weapons aren't even meant to do... Typically if you see something with low ammo its a hybrid DPS/burst weapon. The plasma does not quite get there due to its energy cost. As long as you can make missed shots ECM count towards the next shot, or sending a grenade home its worth the weight (its never worth the drain...lol). 

 

Diminished radar function can be pretty game breaking depending on the weight classes involved. 

 

I'm hesitant to call it better than kamal in anything but looks, however the one thing that really gums up an attrition based kamal offense is a fatter thing with more kamals. Tanks have been onto this for nearly a decade, always be on the look out for the open back slot appearance of an inactive kamal when using your own offensively. Hint, the gun works better in reverse. Its actually optimized for a defensive roll, to whatever extent back mounted shotgun cannon can be considered a defensive asset.

 

that pretty little plasma gun turtles better, and due to the laws of nature (you have 900 muzzle over whatever boost speed, a relatively slow thing can get some use out of it, fast builds can really abuse jammed radar function to gen-lock heavier ACs to the ground, once (if...) the plasma cannon does its job it mitigates its own energy cost until the targets kp is recharged. Sapla fired at the same time or just a few frames before (sapla is ~30 muzzle slower) lands for a direct hit or somewhere in the teen thousands off splash damage, unless you're against using arm weapons (and designing them to compensate for a ground pound cannon combo... they need to hit hard they nee- rifles. dual rifles.... i recommend trying it in pve, if only to witness the potential destruction, ECM and rattled tanks taking to the sky is where the real fun begins. 

 

 

 

Once you've come to appreciate, digest and grieve for the potential and cheeky mind games of the PC, switch it out for a second sapla. It does the same thing better. Stun is pretty reserved in this game, why they chose to throw really high impact on sapla is beyond me..


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#6 Temjin

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 11:50 PM

Thanks you guys for the suggestions, and also had the chance to play with Nescient last week.  I made some small changes on the AC.  Added a stablizer on the core L upper, quick turn left felt a bit faster.  For controls, I changed the buttons for switching back weapons. Before I had the Triangle to switch RB weapon, now I use the R3.  The D Pad arrow down for switch LB weapon. 

 

I got 2 extra FRS points from mission mode, added one for the special boost-QB3 (Lateral,) other one for Craft Control-Stability 2 (landing). Later may be I will emtpy all FRS points in Craft Control-Stability 3(being shot), and put them on QB Lateral.  Tried that and it worked quite well, but need some time to get used.

 

Sometimes when gliding and QBing on the ground, I will accidently do a quick turn.  Is there a way  to avoid it completely?  May be like when on the ground, don't touch the right stick? but that limited turning.

 

 

 

 

 

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#7 rogan

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 04:40 AM

 

 

Sometimes when gliding and QBing on the ground, I will accidently do a quick turn.  Is there a way  to avoid it completely?  May be like when on the ground, don't touch the right stick? but that limited turning.

Practice, this happens until you really get the controls down. I would actually suggest using the type B dual analog default. That control scheme also translates into 5th gen pretty well too.

​EDIT: Also, consider the Lahire Legs. I tried to rebuild your design and make suggestions but I always ended up going to the Lahire legs. They are still very fast, have excellent turning, carry a little bit more load, and very strong PA stats. However, they aren't as light as the Soberero.


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#8 Nescient

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:19 AM

Thanks you guys for the suggestions, and also had the chance to play with Nescient last week.  I made some small changes on the AC.  Added a stablizer on the core L upper, quick turn left felt a bit faster.  For controls, I changed the buttons for switching back weapons. Before I had the Triangle to switch RB weapon, now I use the R3.  The D Pad arrow down for switch LB weapon. 

 

I got 2 extra FRS points from mission mode, added one for the special boost-QB3 (Lateral,) other one for Craft Control-Stability 2 (landing). Later may be I will emtpy all FRS points in Craft Control-Stability 3(being shot), and put them on QB Lateral.  Tried that and it worked quite well, but need some time to get used.

 

Sometimes when gliding and QBing on the ground, I will accidently do a quick turn.  Is there a way  to avoid it completely?  May be like when on the ground, don't touch the right stick? but that limited turning.

 

at some point you're going to want to tackle ground fighting. Ground turns are like a zero energy cost quick boost turn. Use regular-b if you're right at dominant.


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#9 Temjin

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:22 PM

Rogan-
Ok, I will practice on that if it can be done. I can see the advantage on the Type B, really cut down the workload on the fingers. Probably more practical in a real fight with Type B. On my current setup I use four fingers on the four shoulder buttons, this way I have both thumbs on the sticks. I have ACVD and AC5 with similar setup, a bit hard to convert back.

Lahire Legs are nice, feels a bit like a mid weight when it's in the air. I played with it occasionally before, Soberero Legs continue to glide after a boost, the lahire drops really fast. I do like the Lahire fast turn and more AP, I Will look more into it.


This video Solterelor uses Lahire legs



Nescient-
I tried to do that, fighting without going Airborne. As you imagine I do an unintended quick turn every once a while. I see the usefulness of ground maneuver pratice, especially when charging my energy on the ground and being attacked at the same time.
 



#10 Nescient

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 09:44 PM

What boosters are you using for comparison?

 

You might be noticing the aerodynamic modifiers... Lahire and Sobrero both have top tier aerodynamics, I know lahire's "aero bonus" is horiztonal, don't recall Sobrero's numbers, but it could have better vertical aerodynamics on top of weighing less.

 

 

 

Ground turns are finicky. IIRC quick boosting into the ground and sliding with booster off activates the "spin cycle" if you input a poorly timed directional. It happens to me pretty often during the low energy dance if I screw up the QB chain exit (reminiscent of PS1 and 2 era bunny hopping). 

 

Getting around the ground turn quirk, band-aid fashion, is pretty easy with adequate vertical thrust:weight ratio. Leave R/L3 alone, hold boost, problem solved. However this is a bad habit as it leaves you wide open for a moment. Always take off with horizontal momentum. Holding boost while stationary causes the goofy jump-assist animation, which takes a long time to recover for most leg types (you can't quick boost for a moment). Rather than landing, think of yourself as a skipping stone. Touch down, let off for a fraction of a second while sliding and reactivate boost in one fluid motion. Taking off this way skips the jump animation recovery.

 

Lightweights should only require a very slight nudge to lift off on regular boost. IME Virtue can be tricky to get off the ground conventionally (due to weak and inefficient vertical thrust). Just remember to avoid directional input while sliding with booster off.


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#11 Temjin

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 01:33 AM

Forward quick boost with CB-Rachel, when comparing both types of legs. Lahire legs may need more powerful forward booster to take full advantage of it's strength, like in the vidoe above.

Yep, it was the booster off "spin cycle"  that troubles me. The one that you qb to the right, then immediately move the R3 stick to the left will do a standing still 360 spin.  If I don't touch the R3 stick may be ok, that means no turning or look up/down, only qb side to side movements. Or when qbooting, just remember don't play with R3 Stick.

 

usualy I'm ok with landing and take off. At the beginning I was having trouble with hard landing and forward take off. After some pratice, like some of the points you mentioned, I can do them intuitively now. 



#12 rogan

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 07:45 AM

Well first off, drop Rachel mains, they are just bad. While EN efficient they have a very short quick boost with limited power. (Look at the quick boost stats, there is one for power and one for either duration or distance i can't remember which off the top of my head) Anything below a duration of 7 better have some very strong stats in other areas to make up for it. For example judith mains have outstanding veritcal thrust which makes them the best hovering booster avalible. It would not surprise me at all to find that your side booster is more powerful than your main booster.

​Your aim (look) and movement joysticks should be separate if you use type B. Unless I am remembering wrong.

​Learning ground based stuff, particularly rushing and CQC requires that you really have your quick turning on point and can take off at a moments notice (unless you like to block grenades with your face, like me) because a mistimed drift turn can destory positioning and give your opponent a chance to easily break off. I would also suggest you try learning to boost hop, just tap the booster. If you do this and QB you can reach very high speeds from what appears to be a standstill throwing off a lot of weapons.


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#13 Temjin

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 10:52 PM

Other boosters drain too much energy, the only one I can manage other than Rachel is MB11-Latona, but the quick reload time is slower. I was practicing with White glint in order match, comparing Rachel with Latona. Latona was lighter, went vertical faster.  If I didn't look  at the specs I wouldn't have notice the reload time. May be that's one alternative.

 

http://armoredcore.w...iki/MB11-LATONA

http://armoredcore.w.../wiki/CB-RACHEL

 

Type B the sticks have the same layout with my current setup, I only have the aim stick in reverse up/down.

 

Boost hop was a lot easier in the older AC games, something I need to pratice. If only do one or two, no problem. Keep doing a series of boost hops, I need to focus hard or mess up. I'm ok with tap booster then QB. Close range is difficult to control, and my quick turns are really slow.  If I have to fight someone in a room with no space to run, I will not last more than a minute.  later I want to replace the side booster for faster quick turns.  I moved 5 FRS points from (Stability when being shot) to the (Special Boost Latral,) and notice the quick turn a bit faster.



#14 Nescient

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 09:38 AM

OK, so if five FRS points makes a noticeable difference, try mobility tunes. Latona is pretty quick with full vert/zontal/qb tune, its better at forward movement than rachel. 

 

Change lahire back to latona and find a better side booster. 


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#15 Temjin

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 05:24 PM

Did some testing on couple of the side boosters, AB-HOLOFERNES quick turn was really fast. I'm using the EKHAZAR-ARMB now, may be something inbetween Holofernes and Armb would be ideal. I added 10 more FRS points to the side booster, see some improvement, but no where close as fast as Holofernes.  Max out side booster tuning may be my best option. I will look into the back booster.

 

http://armoredcore.w...ki/EKHAZAR-ARMB

http://armoredcore.w...i/AB-HOLOFERNES

 

EKHAZAR-ARMB

  • Weight: 301
  • EN Cost: 166
  • Horizontal Thrust: 4108
  • Horizontal EN Cost: 4527
  • Quick Boost: 35752
  • Quick Boost EN Cost: 74500
  • Quick Boost Duration: 8
  • Quick Reload Time: 36

AB-HOLOFERNES

  • Weight: 289
  • EN Cost: 121
  • Horizontal Thrust: 4018
  • Horizontal EN Cost: 6650
  • Quick Boost: 35863
  • Quick Boost EN Cost: 69780
  • Quick Boost Duration: 12
  • Quick Reload Time: 35


#16 Temjin

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 11:00 PM

Just finished playing with someone online, the first two rounds I did fine and out maneuver him in dual rifle fight.  He was using a mid-weight, I was using the same setup here. On the third round and later he changed to another mid-weight AC but with a lot missiles, I started having trouble. 

 

The missiles was really fast, looked like the one that came out of the Stigro from one of the mission. His tactic was to attack me with tons of missiles first, quick turned, and launched more missiles, finally went in with rifles.  So, missiles was coming at me from behind all the time.

 

Any suggestions how to deal this kind of situation?  Players use missiles as their main weapons?

 

 

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#17 Nescient

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 10:53 AM

sounds like mp0203 spam. Theyre tough to dodge with big (horizontal) movements but easy to avoid with vertical thrust, or by dropping below them at the right time, so that they start to loop behind you and hit the ground.

 

Other options are flares, and or dropping one rifle for an MG to blow them up in your opponents face.


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#18 Temjin

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 02:09 PM

Ok, in that case I will add couple points to the vertical boost tuning later, but I will practice dodging missiles from Stigro first. Mp0203 properly much hard to dodge, since they have two rows and seem slightly faster. I used to think missiles were easy to dodge, but learned the hard way yesterday....

I like GALLATIN02, not heavy, and I couldn't tell the ac slowed down from them. I will keep them in mind as an backup weapon if I failed to doge missiles, or just too many of them.  I will try the MG see how it works, but don't think I can drop one rifle, I need enough attack power to strip down my opponent AP fast.

 

Thanks again, most likely I will run into him again, hopefully will be more ready next time.



#19 Nescient

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 10:22 AM

practice on stigro wont help much with 0203s, which combine slower cruise speed with better tracking, Stigro's barrages are extremely fast but track very little. This synergy makes MP0203 capable of 180 degree and greater turns. They are extremely difficult to deal with quickly while airborne.

 

use flares early and often if you got them. Otherwise you're handicapping yourself. Missiles tend to be very high drain, 0203 is over 1K static drain and it runs empty pretty fast.... So saving your flares for later is only going to lead to them being wasted, as your opponent will usually spam and drop missiles by mid-late game. 

 

Ultimately your goal is to dodge them all, lightweights can. Flares work offensively for lights, use them on approach to avoid unnecessary energy expenditure. 


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#20 Temjin

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 10:48 PM

Even dodging missiles from Stigro is quite changeling for me, so MP0203 no chance.  I'm missing some basic missile dodging techniques. I have seen this video before, but didn't pay much attention back then.  If you have anything to add from your experience please share.  Dodging missiles up and down I understand, but dodging from the side I need practice. I guess you have to visualize the missile fly path, then time your moves.



Flares sound like a good plan, I will have them attached and get used to the balance.  I also changed the shoulders fire button to triangle, so I can detach shoulder weapons more easily. Since I have the right stick button for switch right weapon and down d-pad to switch left weapon. 






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