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#241 Robonator

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 06:47 PM

Kumos arent broken and 30k dmg from 30m is way of an exaggeration il show you tomorrow the arc that they hit and how your speed and weight factor in your dmg

Alright lookng forward to it :D



#242 rogan

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 04:14 AM

30k dmg from 30m is way of an exaggeration

Yea, 30k is simply a conservative estimate. Disso has been able to consistently OHKO my heavy tanks with kumos. (48K AP or higher and 1870 KE)
 

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#243 Reyleones

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 06:34 AM

Im pretty sure disso understands critical hit boxes wich is another factor into your final damage when you swing kumos, also anyone ever just test acc kumos when not moving?..they do like 1k damage sooo yea you may hit for 30k to 40k but theres alot that goes into that to make you do that much dmg its not just swing and go n you get 30k hits...your more likely to hit for 5k to 20k Given you dont have a uw wich is another miss information by griphenix it doeant make your hitbox with kumos bigger it just makes the weight on your back more so you hit harder with that weight, you can do the same with lets say 2 sawas or something along the lines, hence why kumo quads can one shot you

#244 rogan

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 07:24 AM

Positioning Plays a factor. Sera posted a very early video:



​During this he gets a range of damage of 10-15K with a single 003 kumo using that drop technique. With just one kumo. Using two kumos that is pretty cleanly 20-30K damage.

​Here is Sera testing out the grind blade + 003 Kumos. Definitely confirms increased damage. Its not weight either, since he uses bay units and other UWs to test damage against the grind blade. 



​He gets a good boost in damage from using the grind blade set up. With two swings its very feasible to OHKO even heavy tanks given the numbers displayed in this video.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention the rough max range and Hixbox tests he does in the 1st video. IIRC the max range shown in the vid is something like 36.02 and it does hit very well to either side. Fortunately, this hitbox does not extend all the way behind the Kumo user.


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#245 Nescient

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 08:29 AM

accy kumo can hit for over 30k with one blade. As far as UWs are concerned you're half right, half wrong.

 

as far as being broken... well, they have the most easy play match ups of any melee weapon, for the least requirements, barring some grasp of forward momentum and diving. A little desync (courtesy of international fights, wifi, or glide boost) and 003s will pick up hits well beyond 40m.

 

All melee weapons exhibit some degree of phantom range online, I think we can agree on this aside from the nitty gritty rapid tune kumos, power detta etc. Three things make 003 kumos the king of phantom range:

 

1. Rubber band strat. The damage formula obviously demands that kumos always be delivered at the fastest speed possible. All melee builds benefit from this to some degree, kumos reliance on speed increases the likelihood of a good hit looking like shit on the defenders end. 

 

2. Hitbox porn. Accy tuning produces a completely different hitbox from power, literally creating the perfect shitstorm of abusable melee shenanigans. TE blade AoE without the mobility penalty flowing into a big stinky jab that persists much like a pile. It also adds significant horizontal range, giving 003 kumos two attack angles (clipping an ACs feet from equal altitude, and creeping glide boost hidden lawn mower attack) which are A. unique to them and B. safe as hell. People hate to/fail at adjusting to this as the typical space bait>punish strat for quickly dealing with melee tends to backfire. 

 

3. Ahegao: Depending on the setup, kumos have yet another unique property. This one should be obvious (or at least a "oh duh" moment....) if you're familiar with the weapon. You can shift the hitbox by a significant margin left or right post swing. For example, a 900 turn rate LBP using tokonatsu has time to swivel ~90 degrees off center out of a full tilt GB+HB rush. This may be the second most effective method of breaking physics/netcode/minds/friendships in the game and the second best attribute of the holy synergy that makes 003 kumos crack the over 9000 meta SL. 

a. First off, lets agree that a big part of any given battle is being able to perceive exactly where your opponent is facing. If you've spent time fighting a good tank player, you know that really fast turn rate often "rubber bands" resulting in that exorcist moment we're all too familiar with. TLDR its hard to judge... 

b. 36 range sounds like a small stationary hitbox. A number of factors contribute to this- what legs were you using? what arms? In any case it can be made to hit much further... unless you are trying to pinpoint the tip of the dual swing sweetspot? In any case, the highest range weapons i know of are utica and the 8 shot pile. The pile is a real stand out and dual amped LBs can reach out to about 50m. Kumos might not match that raw number in an offline or over-simplified test but they come close. 

c. b was getting side tracked. something something. lets meet in the middle and say 40m for a good honest lbp with no tricks up its sleeve.

d. The cumulative effect of all this nonsense: accuracy kumos hitbox is effectively able to direct its full range and hit consistently high damage (clothes-lining usually lands 2-3 hits, but 30K is entirely possible) in a near 180 degree arc, with lower damage outside that range on a really spinny build. 

 

ok you got this far. Plain and simple: In addition to that this effect  that mimics laser blade AoE remember that kumos duration and lingering hitbox already mimic the second and third best attribute of the pile attack animation. 

 

So once somebody with solid fundamentals really understands the dynamics at hand, kumos absolutely have the potential to become OP tier. The nail in the coffin being that under no circumstance, save the most heinously minuscule window of time, is the kumo user committed to its attack. Not only can it swing ad infinitum, its never locked into the attack animation should a swing miss or lead to grounding. Not only can it swing ad infinitum, its never locked into the attack animation should a swing miss or lead to grounding. Not only can it swing ad infinitum, its never locked into the attack animation should a swing miss or lead to grounding. Not only can it swing ad infinitum, its never locked into the attack animation should a swing miss or lead to grounding.

 

A good player using kumos might do better with other forms of melee, avoiding more damage by damage racing with 1HKO weapons. A really good player will often get a kill faster using piles, laser blades, or even boost charge. But as we know nothing in the roster can really match accuracy kumos potential to land hits. Combine that with an always available HB cancel makes a great player with 003s often unhittable in a very mathematical, meta, ps3 jp sort of way. The punishment window that makes laserblades and piles strictly intermediate-advanced melee options does not exist. LBs getting damage raced through swings and piles having to stance out for a second to salvage any lost swag of the moment being the number one cause of death, this defensive advantage is arguably the kumos greatest asset. 

 

Most of the physical bladers I come across have very little to no idea what they're doing. Melee only rooms promote the most bullshit of strategies and generally retard meta, which takes player skill/advancement with it. Often its a game of RPS where paper folds itself into a plane and spends the entire match on the back pedal. I understand that you want to win/not die, but if you're going to participate in a melee battle the highest form of etiquette is offense. Challenging yourself to set the pace and pick your shot is also the only way a melee room will serve as some practice. 

 

Rant aside, these players often fair well in melee only rooms without much skill. At a certain skill level te blades and piles take back some ground but do so at the expense of specialization. Point is shitty kumo players can get by within the vacuum of int melee only rooms, coz they have the best balance of attributes for surviving. Ill get back to this later.

 

 

other things

 

To be perfectly clear: Without considering fully optimized physical blades, it takes dual amps and ammo mags to put LBs and piles on equal footing with a 276 weight set of milk toast accuracy kumos. 

 

Kumo builds have the widest array of viable to competitive options available to them, and hold total monopoly in the most important but undervalued stat of all, FMTAWRN, or fun meta that actually works real nice. Piles take back some ground at the lower end of the mobility spectrum but only serving as a back-up option on the few builds fast enough to function in that range but also suffering from weight constraints or weak boost charge numbers. The only competitive hybrid piler involves lasers. Laser blades are in a tough spot as a primary weapon because of how poorly amps function. To be really generous lets say dual amp pulse/shotty and the RPG laser build still works, never mind the fundamentally flawed nature of a build that needs energy for offensive spacing and gunning. 

 

Kumos can pretty much do whatever they want. While the need for speed is often used as a defense against those who claim it king of the hill, its a flawed argument as melee is generally a high speed high energy cost affair; it isn't as though piles and blades have the option to fully exploit low speed potential in a serious match, or do anything to compensate for there weaknesses that negates the energy cost of getting there and back. Precision at point blank is an undeniable weakness, or rather an all out blank-spot of the murakumo that makes it a somewhat double edged sword, but in real play opportunities to use slow speed methods are rare, and generally offer just as easy a window for a full power kumo hit. An easy solution to the close range blank spot is pulse/shotgun, which leaves enough space for a fully optimized melee drivetrain. If it lands one melee hit, its literally game over assuming it has AP lead, at which point one has the option to sit behind a building and reap pendulous punishment windows at little to no risk till no one wants to play with you.

 

The list goes on, and unlike the pile and amp builds, kumos fundamentally never suffer from the dead weight/stats bottleneck that makes the comparison so one sided. 

 

Subbed SRs have always been at the top of the meta, obviously op build is op for obvious reasons, its the most evasive layout conceivable that hits beyond mid range with unlimited 1 shots. The mag build stands to blow it out of the water in a duel but does not share the reputation SR/kumo has for taking down teams unscathed, and more realistically gets sniped on or bonked if its charging lasers carelessly. 

 

Non-reliance on SU is actually a misinterpretation of the most overlooked and wildly useable strength in kumos arsenal. Missiles. Any missile lends strength to a kumo build. Light CE covers the hardest targets, VTFs vtf things, MMs play wildcard. Missile flight time and tracking corral targets into predictable patterns. HSM is one of those ultra rare parts that adds to everything with little to no downside and loads of stand-alone versatility, its a rare setup that can literally forget about numbers in all but a few instances. In a theoretical melee only+any shoulder competition, kumos bury piles and laser blades down to a single frame, saving lives through use of non-lethal AP lead, time loss through less loading screen:game, and likely without having to take a swing. 

 

 

 

Now, back to this swivel post swing deal. Its basically what separates the good from the bad and the ugly. The problem is that most have discovered by now that accuracy kumo LRJs get shit done, and they do, they outlast in melee rooms with single button "air superiority," netting the last kill by waging furious retreat and, frankly, the most shamefully retarded bait in the game that honestly tends to land because the better player knows that newbs simply need to see the effect of this strangely coordinated dance, experience it first hand, and more importantly theres 6 people waiting for next game. They also get to spam dive attacks as well, which needs no explanation. 

 

^this is all ok, but make no mistake its whats happened to int free battle.

 

 

The LRJ dive has a few issues. Mainly, it cannot take full advantage of turning. You can still bias it to either side, but the effect is lost and you really want to be dead assing the overheads anyway. Once people hear that it multiplies damage times a thousand a lot over-rely on it, as its 100% safe in the melee rooms they start in. While it can still be employed in 1v1s, loitering over somebody's head is going to garner attention in a team battle, there cannot be much if any hesitation. More importantly its often impossible if your fighting a good player with a properly equipped build. CQC tanks can shut down stuttering dive bombers easily with the boundary. HBPs and quads can combat the overhead play at as low as 250hb provided jump points and decent turning. These are definitive hard-counters, build tech and strategies intended to level the playing field with the oh so popular kamikaze LRJ. If you agree that kumos have "hard counters" which they absolutely do, then you are admitting it is a meta weapon, or as the AC community perfers, "OP".

 

 

But that isn't what makes it OP. Its just the easiest path of access to simple success, fulfilling the fundamental roll of anti-tank on a build that doesnt simply have to melee everything. Properly choreographed lateral attacks come out way faster, meaning less exposure for you and reaction time for your opponent and as I said earlier, lateral attacks are by nature easier to land.

 

IMO, what makes 003 murakumos literally overpowered is there performance in duels. Light bipeds can force a VERY narrow, map dependent pick that might be specialized to one or two limited strategies. So what I'm saying is tuning accuracy murakumos grants the user time traveling capabilities and 2 for 1 ranked matches.

 

 

Lightweights ability to dodge renders many weapons useless at range,  you might have 50 meters at best to get an initial shot in before it initiates the attack and another 100 before the two ACs collide. The only window to guarantee a defensive stun occurs when the attacker straightens out during the initial attack animation. 

 

So to be safe, assuming 50m dodges (which is absolute suicide due to net code) the kumos are "exposed" for 100m, beyond which they'll win almost any damage traded with guns, or likely stagger them out of there shot, taking only the initial scrape. An expert kumo user can tighten that gap considerably with glide boost weaving or break lock and take the fight off-screen, pressing its advantage further. If they've got your rhythm down and the game doesnt shit itself, the glide approach is nearly unhittable.

 

Now, if the kumo build does it right it glides until its within range, breaks lock, then makes the attack, ensuring that the only way its opponent can damage it is tanking the swing and eliminating the brief but punishable activation window. This is competent damage racing and this alone is enough to make kumos an extremely viable solution to gun wielding bots running crazed through your base. 

 

But the thats the claw to the face solution. If you're more inclined to take him out with a spinning back-kick, kumos have that option too.

 

The post attack swivel, done right, further tightens the counter-attack gap. This starts with strafing at attack range or approaching in what looks something like a big S on top of the required weave. The goal is to avoid trades at the end by influencing your targets movement during your approach (if they're locked on) or otherwise stay to the outside of there FCS reticule. Approach from the outside of your targets turning direction, cross over, then break lock as you cross back to there outside and swivel into them during the attack. Pro tip: if you set it up such that you're swivel opportunity is on the right and expect your opponent to run the gauntlet (directly at/under you) the right arm kumos hitbox will start behind your vector (catching them behind you if they cut it close).

 

This creates a whiplash effect that not only breaks certain weapons, but entire builds (turning rate), FCS, generators and archetypes- to an extent it possesses an attack thats mathematically impossible to punish with enough mobility to exploit many of those weaknesses individually. It allows kumos to play safer vs a single gunner than any other form of melee, which snowballs further with melee's biggest advantage, energy efficiency.


Close the door, put out the light.


#246 Reyleones

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 09:05 AM

His choice in music is no bueno




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